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Gareth

General Discussions on Brexit

191 posts in this topic

We seem to talk an awful lot about the trade and economic aspects of “Brexit”, but for me perhaps the single most negative aspect of this is the fact that the UK is, symbolically if nothing else, literally walking away from its neighbours in the political sense, and from what is the single most successful organisation of its kind in the world; regardless of its faults, the EU has achieved a great deal in terms of cooperation and prosperity amongst its members. The UK will, undoubtedly, lose influence as a result of this, whether it leaves the single market or not. And if, as some claim, our departure is the start of the eventual unravelling of the EU, is that really something to be proud of? Just look at the kind of world we live in today. To deliberately want to sabotage something which has done so much to promote civilised values in the world (which is what many of the ‘Brexiteers’ ultimately want to do, not all by any means, but many) seems to me to be increadibly short-sighted, bloody-minded and incredibly sad.

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Ryan H well said,could not agree more.

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May has just said the foreign aid budget will stay the same, so no cutting that then to pay for the NHS, schools, social services...

Money will still go abroad and plenty of it.

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3 hours ago, Ryan_H said:

We seem to talk an awful lot about the trade and economic aspects of “Brexit”, but for me perhaps the single most negative aspect of this is the fact that the UK is, symbolically if nothing else, literally walking away from its neighbours in the political sense, and from what is the single most successful organisation of its kind in the world; regardless of its faults, the EU has achieved a great deal in terms of cooperation and prosperity amongst its members. The UK will, undoubtedly, lose influence as a result of this, whether it leaves the single market or not. And if, as some claim, our departure is the start of the eventual unravelling of the EU, is that really something to be proud of? Just look at the kind of world we live in today. To deliberately want to sabotage something which has done so much to promote civilised values in the world (which is what many of the ‘Brexiteers’ ultimately want to do, not all by any means, but many) seems to me to be increadibly short-sighted, bloody-minded and incredibly sad.

Well written and well presented.

Ryan, were we not civilised prior 1992... Didn't the EEC promote cooperation and prosperity?

Doesn't membership of the UN and the WHO promote civilised behaviour also being a signatory of the NPT, how about the Geneva convention?

Which EU Treaties promote civilised behaviour in a different or improved manner to those the UK is already a member of, the UCHR isn't an EU concept it's been around since 1959, the UK were one of the first members, neither is the ECJ that's been around since 1952?

The EU certainly hasn't promoted prosperity for more than half of it's members, just take a look at unemployment rates across Europe particularly in France, Spain and Italy, Greece is devastated. to name just four, how have these countries prospered?

http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/country-focus-eus-unemployment-puzzle-infographic?gclid=Cj0KEQjw2-bHBRDEh6qk5b6yqKIBEiQAFUz29hfeNi-sA_22HO_PsoEP95ClHtX-R4zUZzkTqAkJ6c4aA

17 of the 28 members rely on EU handouts paid by the remaining 11 net contributors without it their economies would be non existent... Seventeen out of twenty eight.. 

Shall we just ignore the riots and demonstrations met with wholesale arrests after the water cannons which have been going on for nearly 5 years?

Shall we just ignore the Spanish pensioners dying in house fires as they are literally burning their underwear to keep warm because they can't afford to pay for heat and hot water?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38024374

The rise of right wing politics isn't sudden, it's been building for years because more and more citizens of the EU are dissatisfied and cannot see the benefits 

The EU has not been successful, two of worst ideas of the 20th century stemmed from its creation.

Schengen, let's allow individuals to travel from the shores of the southern Med to the shores of the Baltic without so much as a wave of the hand, no wonder they rely on our Security Intelligence so much. Those who ratified that nugget clearly had none.. 

The Euro, how on earth can you give 27 countries the same currency, the same exchange and borrowing rates when all of their credit ratings are so different let alone take away their independent need to over or under value a currency to suit a failing or booming economy... Ludicrous.

 

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I am absolutely amazed how the Brexiters can criticise remaining in Europe when they have no real idea  of the outcome of leaving the EU.Everything will be fine,the sun will shine all day. Brexiteers seem to be people who are careful in their personal lives but are prepared to take an enormous risk in their quest for "refinding" the old Great Britain.

Edited by imprimerie
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2 hours ago, jonno said:

The Euro, how on earth can you give 27 countries the same currency, the same exchange and borrowing rates when all of their credit ratings are so different let alone take away their independent need to over or under value a currency to suit a failing or booming economy... Ludicrous.

 

The Euro is not a " ludicrous " policy, it's an essential policy to deliver an integrated Europe. A poorly implemented policy, yes. A policy that should have been implemented over a far longer time frame, yes. The claim that it is a ludicrous is itself quite ludicrous.

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I can't agree with that G4rth. Having visited countries such as Holland,France and Greece etc. it is patently obvious that sharing a common currency simply doesn't work. You are mixing first world countries with second world ones with completely different economic situations and financial management needs. The southern states such as Greece have been crippled as a result as they cannot devalue to match their economic status. This has resulted in a huge amount of hardship.

By all means integrate the 'First World' Northern countries but this simply doesn't work for the others who then draw the short straw and become irretrievably  subordinate to the richer nations as they accumulate the wealth.

I have been visiting Greece for many years and when they adopted the Euro (on false pretences abetted by Germany and France, et al), prices shot up and the country manifestly become much poorer although this was masked to some extent by EU subsidies for building roads etc. Greece has not been well served by its politicians but the country has basically been shafted by the EU, I have watched it happen.

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12 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

I can't agree with that G4rth. Having visited countries such as Holland,France and Greece etc. it is patently obvious that sharing a common currency simply doesn't work. You are mixing first world countries with second world ones with completely different economic situations and financial management needs. The southern states such as Greece have been crippled as a result as they cannot devalue to match their economic status. This has resulted in a huge amount of hardship.

By all means integrate the 'First World' Northern countries but this simply doesn't work for the others who then draw the short straw and become irretrievably  subordinate to the richer nations as they accumulate the wealth.

I have been visiting Greece for many years and when they adopted the Euro (on false pretences abetted by Germany and France, et al), prices shot up and the country manifestly become much poorer although this was masked to some extent by EU subsidies for building roads etc. Greece has not been well served by its politicians but the country has basically been shafted by the EU, I have watched it happen.

Colin, that is the point I was making. The figures were fudged in a number of countries to rush through the implementation of the single currency. It is not in itself a bad policy. Indeed it was an essential long term policy for a unified Europe. The key point is long term, two thirds of the present Euro countries were not ready. Is the policy wrong, definitely not but it's implementation with respect to some countries such as Greece is little short of criminal.

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I think it is a wrong policy on the basis that the likes of Greece  were never going to achieve economic parity with Germany and Holland etc. in the foreseeable future. You only have to travel in these countries to appreciate the huge gulf between them. I love Greece, we go there every year at least once, but places like Holland and Germany are simply on a different planet by comparison economically.

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16 minutes ago, G4rth said:

Colin, that is the point I was making. The figures were fudged in a number of countries to rush through the implementation of the single currency. It is not in itself a bad policy. Indeed it was an essential long term policy for a unified Europe. The key point is long term, two thirds of the present Euro countries were not ready. Is the policy wrong, definitely not but it's implementation with respect to some countries such as Greece is little short of criminal.

So the Euro is needed for a unified Europe but two thirds are not fit to be in it.  Besides all of this who voted for a unified Europe or a country called Europe which is what it would be?

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2 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

I think it is a wrong policy on the basis that the likes of Greece  were never going to achieve economic parity with Germany and Holland etc. in the foreseeable future. You only have to travel in these countries to appreciate the huge gulf between them. I love Greece, we go there every year at least once, but places like Holland and Germany are simply on a different planet by comparison economically.

If it takes the likes of Greece 20, 30 or 40 years so be it. That surely is not a policy problem it's an implementation problem. Who knows how long it will take but eventually all countries in the world will end up on the same level it's an inevitable consequence of population movements. Governments may attempt to hold back the tide of progress they may be successful in the short term but it will ultimately be impossible.

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14 minutes ago, Solo said:

So the Euro is needed for a unified Europe but two thirds are not fit to be in it.  Besides all of this who voted for a unified Europe or a country called Europe which is what it would be?

I appreciate you don't want it Solo but in the very long term it is what will happen. The question is will it be a peaceful transition? I would like to think so but at present we seem to be going in the wrong direction.

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If it takes the likes of Greece 20, 30 or 40 years so be it.

Well, that's not much consolation for the population at large is it? It'll be OK after I'm dead! I think you need to do rather better than that.

The nature of Greece suggests that it is unlikely to become a major industrialised country, and God forbid that it should. That doesn't mean that it cannot achieve a satisfactory economic equilibrium. Countries should not all be forced into the same economic strait jacket.

An EU where every country was the same would be a pretty horrible and uninspiring place to live. The attractiveness of Europe is its cultural diversity whereby individual countries retain their own identities.

 

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46 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

An EU where every country was the same would be a pretty horrible and uninspiring place to live. The attractiveness of Europe is its cultural diversity whereby individual countries retain their own identities.

 

I don't actually disagree with you Colin but I would question whether regional differences are anything to do with political boundaries.  I just happen to think, in the probably very long term,  that abolition of political boundaries is the way society will inevitably have to go if it is to remain viable.

36 minutes ago, Gareth said:

But you appear to rather be in denial about the fact that the majority of the electorate does not see it the way you would like them to.

On the contrary Gareth, I'm not in denial about anything. Do the majority agree with me? I don't think so but so what. Will I be proved to be correct, I'll never know, I'll be long gone as indeed will you. I just happen to believe that eventually the world the will have to become more homogeneous if it is to survive. There appears to be, amongst some, the notion that existing national borders are important. I just happen to think they are not. They have changed throughout history and I see no reason why they should not continue to do so. Perhaps those who are " in denial " just might be those that can't accept change.:)

Edited by G4rth

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