Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
wortley

The new world

Recommended Posts

I see the French are already wanting to stop policing our border for us at Calais - instead are talking of dismantling the camps and letting the migrants go through to Dover so that Britain can control its own border there, and not accept illegal migrants back in France. So if that goes ahead how long it be before the other French ferry ports wash their hands too, and all border control and lorry searches for B/F routes will need to be done at Portsmouth, Poole and Plymouth ?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That will probably be a cross we will have to unfortunately bear now, now the Leave campaign has got it's way. There are going to be massive repercussions and many will affect the Leavers in ways they won't like but have foisted on all of us. This being one possibility. Let them enjoy their celebrations while they last because their decision will come back and bite them all on the backside and wipe the smiles off their faces. We all now have to put up with what happens.

 

My only joy of the Brexit win is that it has had Cameron's acalp and probably Osborne - but that it is it. The toff regime is over.

 

Bet the Countryside Alliance will be hopping mad as they wanted theit hunting jollies back - that looks to be extinct now, that warms the cockles of my heart. At least cameron won't have got the foxhunting back that was one of his priorities!!!

Edited by Khaines
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The toff regime is over.

 

I'm afraid not Bridgette, Boris is every bit a much of a toff as Cameron or Osborne as indeed is Farage the Dulwich College educated stockbroker although he does pretend to be a "man of the people".

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect a lot of things will be put on hold until it becomes clearer what is happening, that was inevitable and will affect several economies.

 

Yesterday the Brussels crowd were shocked and astonished, today they are being increasingly stroppy. They will find ways to make things very uncomfortable for the UK in return for chucking a brick into their grand project. Very difficult to see how it will all pan out in the end but I'm glad I don't live in Gibraltar.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I see the French are already wanting to stop policing our border for us at Calais - instead are talking of dismantling the camps and letting the migrants go through to Dover so that Britain can control its own border there, and not accept illegal migrants back in France. So if that goes ahead how long it be before the other French ferry ports wash their hands too, and all border control and lorry searches for B/F routes will need to be done at Portsmouth, Poole and Plymouth ?

 

Dont think this will happen....

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160625/1041936825/britain-france-border-agreement.html

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect Immigration was the key issue, especially in the South East of England where the failure to keep the transport infrastructure at a level commensurate with the aspirations of the nation to be regarded as being one of the greatest in the world are most apparent. In brief the region is overcrowded and can't really take many more people without building roads and railways in the style of the Netherlands which country some in the SE would not wish the region to become.

Edited by Hawser Trunnion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Quite. This agreement is outside the Schengen agreement as the UK never joined. Any bi-lateral agreement between the UK and another member state which did not require EU approval will not be part of the BREXIT negotiations. The French will still have an obligation to ensure nobody without valid documents boards the ships, for security reasons. If they don't then the ferry companies will not want to sail without a confirmed passenger manifest. Ed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Dont think this will happen....

http://sputniknews.com/europe/201606...agreement.html

 

 

Why should it not happen? 53.2% of english voters voted to renege on our treaty obligations. Why on earth do you think the French should be coy about tearing up this agreement? Europe needs to make an example of us. I'm sure we will reap what we have sown and rightly so.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the idea that other European nations want revenge is wrong. First, we are not reneging on our obligations - an exit mechanism exists for any country which wants to leave and allows them to do so in a dignified manner. Second, making an example of us will just harden anti-European sentiment in the UK among all communities, justifying the Leave campaign's arguments and reducing the chances for an amicable divorce which is mutually acceptable. Third, if they start to cause problems it suggests they are rejecting a democratically valid decision which will lead to further accusations of meddling and influencing national decisions. And fourth, if the French start to tear up agreements it will undermine the entire diplomatic process and will lead to a tit for tat situation where each country tries to sabotage the other. If the French don't want us to use Calais as the number one continental port for passenger traffic then I'm sure the Belgians or more likely the Dutch would be more than happy to take over and add the passenger traffic to the freight which already transits Rotterdam. Ed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the UK can withdraw from the Maastricht treaty and the Lisbon treaty , but the French can't withdraw from a treaty about controlling our border for us? Pull my other leg!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hard to believe that some people are surprised that their vote against co-operation amongst nations will lead to less co-operation amongst nations.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Europe needs to make an example of us. I'm sure we will reap what we have sown and rightly so.

 

Are you serious? Make an example of us for what, being a democratic sovereign state chosing what international agreements we wish to be bound by.

Your statement comes across as quite sinister.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Are you serious? Make an example of us for what, being a democratic sovereign state chosing what international agreements we wish to be bound by.

Your statement comes across as quite sinister.

The EU is a grouping of nation states who have come together for mutual benefit and mutual prosperity. Each one sacrifices a little to be part of a stronger whole, be it monetary or regulatory or bureaucratic. If you opt not to be part of that grouping then the grouping's decisions about how to deal with you will reflect the input of 27 different nations. Some will put a priority on ensuring continued access to the UK market. Some will be keen to address their own internal issues like what effect it would have on Catalan independence. Some may take the opportunity to strengthen specific industries at the expense of British ones. They'll hammer out a common front and I doubt it will be some calculated effort to punish the UK.

 

But if you opt out of co-operation, refuse to any more make those concessions for mutual benefit, then you cannot complain if the remaining countries within the bloc take the opportunity to promote similar self interest.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whilst one would like to believe that all parties will act in an objective manner, I don't think you can exclude the human factor. I seem to recall that Cameron tried to block Junker's appointment on the basis that he was not competent to do the job (and overfond of a liquid lunch as well). I suspect that there is certainly a degree of revenge colouring Junker's actions at the moment, he wouldn't be human if there were not. And of course within the campaign itself there was precious little objectivity on either side.

 

I'm sure the EU will drive a hard bargain in that they will seek agreements which are more to their benefit than to ours and we shall need some clever and hard nosed negotiators to fight our corner. As somebody once very rightly said: 'Countries do not have friends - only interests'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Are you serious? Make an example of us for what, being a democratic sovereign state chosing what international agreements we wish to be bound by.

Your statement comes across as quite sinister.

 

I'm sorry if you think I came across as sinister Nick, I'm way to old to be considered that.

 

So sinister no, distraught yes I'm definitly that. I was born in England but since we joined the common market I've always considered myself as European before being British then English. The EU needs to "make an example of us" in so much as they need to be very hard on the UK because they need to discourage others. I cannot see that that is being unreasonable. Before the referendum the arguement was made that nobody under the age of 18 in 1974 had had a say on EEC/EU membership.Yes that was true but leaving the EU is not a reversable process, the mainly but not exclusively elderly, have now ensured that nobody under the age of 18 in 2016 will ever have a say or be able to take advantage of the benefits that EU membership would have brought them. What I find indefensible is that the way the referendum was organized nothing was put in place to guard against a low turnout, which we didn't get, or narrow majority, which is how it turned out. If just 2 people in a 100 had voted differently or not at all the result would have been reversed. How can that be right on any level?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm sorry if you think I came across as sinister Nick, I'm way to old to be considered that.

 

So sinister no, distraught yes I'm definitly that. I was born in England but since we joined the common market I've always considered myself as European before being British then English. The EU needs to "make an example of us" in so much as they need to be very hard on the UK because they need to discourage others. I cannot see that that is being unreasonable. Before the referendum the arguement was made that nobody under the age of 18 in 1974 had had a say on EEC/EU membership.Yes that was true but leaving the EU is not a reversable process, the mainly but not exclusively elderly, have now ensured that nobody under the age of 18 in 2016 will ever have a say or be able to take advantage of the benefits that EU membership would have brought them. What I find indefensible is that the way the referendum was organized nothing was put in place to guard against a low turnout, which we didn't get, or narrow majority, which is how it turned out. If just 2 people in a 100 had voted differently or not at all the result would have been reversed. How can that be right on any level?

 

The issue is though G4rth is the EU is now the wrong body to take Europe forward. The good bits of the EU are free trade and the free movement of labour but unfortunately the EU Commission, the Central Bank and the Euro itself are failing.

The EU's response to Syria, Greece and the banking crash have been inept and it's this that has led to the rise in popularity of extreme parties and to countries thinking of holding their own referendums on membership.

 

If Cameron had aimed for and achived real reform instead of just trying to mangage Conservative back benchers we wouldn't be having this debate because Remain would have got a landslide and I would have voted for it.

 

I now really believe that Britain can now mold a new Europe, initially with like minded northern European contries which will focus mainly on trade and enterprise. It's this that will raise prosperity not a vain political costruction.

 

I regarded your comments about Britain being punished as sinister because it sounded like a Soviet response to a wayward Hungary or Czeckoslovakia even if you meant economically and not militarily.

 

Regards

Nick.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The issue is though G4rth is the EU is now the wrong body to take Europe forward. The good bits of the EU are free trade and the free movement of labour but unfortunately the EU Commission, the Central Bank and the Euro itself are failing.

The EU's response to Syria, Greece and the banking crash have been inept and it's this that has led to the rise in popularity of extreme parties and to countries thinking of holding their own referendums on membership.

 

If Cameron had aimed for and achived real reform instead of just trying to mangage Conservative back benchers we wouldn't be having this debate because Remain would have got a landslide and I would have voted for it.

 

I now really believe that Britain can now mold a new Europe, initially with like minded northern European contries which will focus mainly on trade and enterprise. It's this that will raise prosperity not a vain political costruction.

 

I regarded your comments about Britain being punished as sinister because it sounded like a Soviet response to a wayward Hungary or Czeckoslovakia even if you meant economically and not militarily.

 

Regards

Nick.

 

That's exactly the way forward with Norway and the other Nordic nations including perhaps Iceland and build some sort of alliance which spans the north Atlantic to offer the Americans and Canadians an alternative to Europe and the chance to work with people who are culturally and ethically more related. I understand why 48% of the population are angry and disappointed but that's the way democracy works. If the margin is for some too small to be valid then that should have been made clear before the vote. Petitioning the government before hand might have allowed some safeguards or at the very least people would have been aware of the stakes and those who decided not to vote might have done so to help swing the result. Ed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

That's exactly the way forward with Norway and the other Nordic nations including perhaps Iceland and build some sort of alliance which spans the north Atlantic to offer the Americans and Canadians an alternative to Europe and the chance to work with people who are culturally and ethically more related. I understand why 48% of the population are angry and disappointed but that's the way democracy works. If the margin is for some too small to be valid then that should have been made clear before the vote. Petitioning the government before hand might have allowed some safeguards or at the very least people would have been aware of the stakes and those who decided not to vote might have done so to help swing the result. Ed

 

It seems to be forgotten that before we applied for membership of the EU we had our own rival customs union, "the Seven". This effectively ended when we applied to join "the Six". Maybe we should have stayed with it.

 

I'm not sure taking very serious decisions relating to The Constitution and which could affect the country for decades to come by a simple majority is particularly democratic. Maybe a minimum turnout and a minimum percentage majority should have been established beforehand. As it is we have a country substantially equally divided between the two factions with the minority, just, unlikely to take it lying down, especially as it includes an important region I.e Scotland. The first past the post system is only truly democratic when the majority is substantially the largest group, at least substantially more than 50% of the voters, in the electoral district. Thus it tends to be very unfair in a multi party system. We had the chance of changing it in the AV referendum. Maybe the wrong decision was taken then, maybe like now.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The issue is though G4rth is the EU is now the wrong body to take Europe forward. The good bits of the EU are free trade and the free movement of labour but unfortunately the EU Commission, the Central Bank and the Euro itself are failing.

The EU's response to Syria, Greece and the banking crash have been inept and it's this that has led to the rise in popularity of extreme parties and to countries thinking of holding their own referendums on membership.

 

If Cameron had aimed for and achived real reform instead of just trying to mangage Conservative back benchers we wouldn't be having this debate because Remain would have got a landslide and I would have voted for it.

 

I now really believe that Britain can now mold a new Europe, initially with like minded northern European contries which will focus mainly on trade and enterprise. It's this that will raise prosperity not a vain political costruction.

 

I regarded your comments about Britain being punished as sinister because it sounded like a Soviet response to a wayward Hungary or Czeckoslovakia even if you meant economically and not militarily.

 

Regards

Nick.

 

Nick, I wouldn't disagree with what your saying. What I don't have is any faith in english politicans to get their act together and organize anything. I think they have stirred up so much xenophobia in the country that it could well take twenty or thirty years to set up, time we don't have.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who is showing leadership qualities in this country now ? Not Gove nor Corbyn or Boris , I'm glad a live in Scotland because whilst she's not my favourite politician Sturgeon is the only politician I can see that is looking like proper in control politician .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Why should it not happen? 53.2% of english voters voted to renege on our treaty obligations. Why on earth do you think the French should be coy about tearing up this agreement? Europe needs to make an example of us. I'm sure we will reap what we have sown and rightly so.

 

Sorry you are taking this personally...but you are wrong. This is a bilateral agreement between UK and France...Paris confirm they have no intention of removing border checks. Everyone who voted in this referendum did so on their own personal circumstances. The British ExPats in France and Spain voted in for Pension reasons and Gibraltar 96% voted in because of their geographical position. I cannot see the majority of voters actually considering what would be best for UK... it is always what is best for me... UK imports more from EU so it will be a big loss to EU.. nobody will look at this as "lets get revenge on UK"... business is business... it is predicted there may well be a domino effect of Netherlands and others looking to follow. The Euro has been predicted as having maybe 5 to 10 years left.... time will tell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The remaining members of the EU are going to try their hardest to make this as much of a living hell as they can to the UK to try to protect and strengthen the EU it's a make or break situation,hard times ahead regardless of what happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sadly I think the referendum turned into a competition between exagerated promises and exagerated scaremongering. My own view is that the decision was far too complex for a referendum especially when most politicians (on both sides) did their usual of making statements and promises they personally wouldn't have to deliver. The EU do have a problem in that if our exit deal is good there could well be a queue of other countries wanting similar deals. Having recently been on holiday and spent a considerable amount of time with a number of people from Holland and Germany, I was a bit surprised when almost all of them expressed the view that we were very lucky to have been given the choice as they had been given no choice over the Euro etc. I am not so sure we were "lucky" as all it seems to have done is divide the country and the PM (I am no great fan) has paid the price for misjudging the numbers all because he had to find a way of dulling UKIP support just before the last election. I still think there is a lot of water to go under the bridge but undoubtably the remaining countries leaders will be falling over themselves over unity to avoid the possibility of a similar drive and consequence in their countries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a sad state of affairs... my own personal opinion is that the EU - 28 countries - got too big. Ten EU Countries (UK being the third biggest contributer) put more money than they get out and the remaining 18 countries take more out..... either the present biggest contributers will now have to put more money in or else allow the demise of countries like Greece.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...