G4rth Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Actually no I am not - It's just not a very good point you make? If the percentages were exactly the same but reversed in favour of "remain" I cannot see any "remain" voters asking for another referendum because the difference is too small. :rolleyes: What a strange point to try to make you do need to compare like with like. Do you honestly think that if remain had won by such a small margin that the the brexiteers would have said that's the end of the matter we''ll all put together and forget about leaving now? If you genuinely think that is the case then thank you, you've answered a lot of questions for me. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Manxscorpio Report post Posted July 3, 2016 What a strange point to try to make you do need to compare like with like. Do you honestly think that if remain had won by such a small margin that the the brexiteers would have said that's the end of the matter we''ll all put together and forget about leaving now? If you genuinely think that is the case then thank you, you've answered a lot of questions for me. That's OK - Well Cameron would still be in power as PM and The Rt Hon George Osborne MP would continue as Chancellor and despite protests and demands for another referendum you can be sure nothing would come of it..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Manxscorpio Report post Posted July 3, 2016 What a strange point to try to make you do need to compare like with like. Do you honestly think that if remain had won by such a small margin that the the brexiteers would have said that's the end of the matter we''ll all put together and forget about leaving now? If you genuinely think that is the case then thank you, you've answered a lot of questions for me. That's OK - Well Cameron would still be in power as PM and The Rt Hon George Osborne MP would continue as Chancellor and despite protests and demands for another referendum you can be sure nothing would come of it..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
G4rth Report post Posted July 3, 2016 That's OK - Well Cameron would still be in power as PM and The Rt Hon George Osborne MP would continue as Chancellor and despite protests and demands for another referendum you can be sure nothing would come of it..... Singularly failed to answer my question "Do you honestly think that if remain had won by such a small margin that the the brexiteers would have said that's the end of the matter we''ll all put together and forget about leaving now?" but at least I can agree with what have said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
G4rth Report post Posted July 3, 2016 That's OK - Well Cameron would still be in power as PM and The Rt Hon George Osborne MP would continue as Chancellor and despite protests and demands for another referendum you can be sure nothing would come of it..... Singularly failed to answer my question "Do you honestly think that if remain had won by such a small margin that the the brexiteers would have said that's the end of the matter we''ll all put together and forget about leaving now?" but at least I can agree with what have said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skipcool3 Report post Posted July 3, 2016 So, no plan, and probably, an unelected PM... I see the biggest based British Airline is in talks to move.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skipcool3 Report post Posted July 3, 2016 So, no plan, and probably, an unelected PM... I see the biggest based British Airline is in talks to move.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khaines Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Read this morning that a new PM would have to deal with IS and Putin - yes they would wouldn't they, it won't be all about doggedly determined efforts to ensure our trade and economy, there are some many unpleasant things to deal with as well. Leadsome, I bet will have no idea about dealing with the aforementioned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khaines Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Read this morning that a new PM would have to deal with IS and Putin - yes they would wouldn't they, it won't be all about doggedly determined efforts to ensure our trade and economy, there are some many unpleasant things to deal with as well. Leadsome, I bet will have no idea about dealing with the aforementioned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Manxscorpio Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Singularly failed to answer my question "Do you honestly think that if remain had won by such a small margin that the the brexiteers would have said that's the end of the matter we''ll all put together and forget about leaving now?" but at least I can agree with what have said. Comprehensively replied to that.... of course there would be always a percentage who would not agree and moan but the fact is simply that those arguments would be dismissed in an instant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Manxscorpio Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Singularly failed to answer my question "Do you honestly think that if remain had won by such a small margin that the the brexiteers would have said that's the end of the matter we''ll all put together and forget about leaving now?" but at least I can agree with what have said. Comprehensively replied to that.... of course there would be always a percentage who would not agree and moan but the fact is simply that those arguments would be dismissed in an instant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvabishop Report post Posted July 3, 2016 New PM will need a high powered task force to implement EU severance and its consequences. This would obviously include Brexiteers. New PM should not simply be defined by the current EU situation. As Brigitte quite rightly points out, there is a lot more to governing the country than simply dealing with the EU, important though it may be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvabishop Report post Posted July 3, 2016 New PM will need a high powered task force to implement EU severance and its consequences. This would obviously include Brexiteers. New PM should not simply be defined by the current EU situation. As Brigitte quite rightly points out, there is a lot more to governing the country than simply dealing with the EU, important though it may be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
G4rth Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Comprehensively replied to that.... If you think that to be the case I'll leave it there as there's clearly little point asking again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
G4rth Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Comprehensively replied to that.... If you think that to be the case I'll leave it there as there's clearly little point asking again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Millsy Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Interesting debate particularly as in the immediate aftefmath of the vote everybody including Farage seemed to kick the negotiations into the long grass of the future. Hesletine addressesd his remarks to the wrong person. It is that second-rater Cameron who landed us here. Johnson was never going to be leader, those who know him wouldn't stand for it. Whoever is elected will have no mandate so I wouldn't rule out a general election either and I wouldn't call the result either. A working majority of sixteen is nothing and stranger blokes than Corbyn have ended up PM in the past.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Millsy Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Interesting debate particularly as in the immediate aftefmath of the vote everybody including Farage seemed to kick the negotiations into the long grass of the future. Hesletine addressesd his remarks to the wrong person. It is that second-rater Cameron who landed us here. Johnson was never going to be leader, those who know him wouldn't stand for it. Whoever is elected will have no mandate so I wouldn't rule out a general election either and I wouldn't call the result either. A working majority of sixteen is nothing and stranger blokes than Corbyn have ended up PM in the past.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hawser Trunnion Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Actually I do think that if the Remains had won by small margin the Brexits would continue to press for another referendum but I don't think they would be so concerned about minimum turnouts and the size of any majority. Perhaps some of the politicoes on both sides ought to watch "Game of Thrones" and then they might learn something. This highly successful TV drama series incorporates many precedents drawn from History and doubtless explains why many academics and some politicians outside the UK who wouldn't normally be expected to take any interest in such stuff are devotees of the production. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hawser Trunnion Report post Posted July 3, 2016 Actually I do think that if the Remains had won by small margin the Brexits would continue to press for another referendum but I don't think they would be so concerned about minimum turnouts and the size of any majority. Perhaps some of the politicoes on both sides ought to watch "Game of Thrones" and then they might learn something. This highly successful TV drama series incorporates many precedents drawn from History and doubtless explains why many academics and some politicians outside the UK who wouldn't normally be expected to take any interest in such stuff are devotees of the production. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) Very interesting discussion. Pleased to see the video from Professor Dougan earlier in the thread. I would have posted it myself had it not already been done. Regarding the reverse question of whether Brexiters would ask for a second referendum if Remain won by a small margin ... Well, Farage did suggest this a few weeks ago: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...rendum-7985017. I reject the argument that to consider a second referendum is anti-democratic. As has been pointed out, the Leave campaign's case was based on lies and misinformation. Any country (or business, or ...) that based its decisions and therefore its future on falsehoods would be asking for trouble. The truly democratic thing to do is to explain to the public calmly what IS already happening in terms of the economy (sharp decline in strength of pound; jobs going overseas; etc) and risk a forecast of how the situation may develop in the near, medium and distant futures. I think the public are ready to admit that what was labelled by the Leave side as "scaremongering" is actually happening already, and it would be quite outrageous to put the country in peril by basing policy on manifestly false information. At any rate, the aim must be to see that the electorate is accurately informed. (And whilst I'm talking democracy, I'd make sure that all Brit expats in the EU could vote in a second referendum, and that youngsters aged 16 and 17 could vote, too). Even if you still think that asking people to think again, and possibly to vote again, is undemocratic, you surely realise that there is a balance here: you have to choose between insisting on a single democratic decision because you regard democracy as the first priority, or insisting that Brexit be dropped because without a decent economy democracy is more or less worthless. I'm sure that we will all bear in mind that when countries' economies go pear-shaped, the way is open for rather nasty characters to claim leadership. Could there have been any worse picture of a British politician than Farage gloating in the European Parliament the other day, claiming that no MEP had ever had a real job or created one? Disgraceful, unseemly, arrogant and self-agrandising behaviour which made me ashamed to be British. (As did his disgusting "Breaking Point" poster). And whilst the UK government does its best to ignore Brit expats in Europe, Germany's vice chancellor Sigmar Gabriel yesterday said that Britons living in the European Union should be given dual citizenship so they can stay when their country leaves the bloc. He told a meeting of the Social Democratic Party in Berlin, "Let us offer it [citizenship] to Britons who live in Germany, Italy or France, so they can remain European Union citizens in this country," In the meantime, I, as a British immigrant to France, am applying for French nationality as I don't want to take any chances. But thanks Germany. And wake up, UK. Edited July 3, 2016 by droopsnout Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) Very interesting discussion. Pleased to see the video from Professor Dougan earlier in the thread. I would have posted it myself had it not already been done. Regarding the reverse question of whether Brexiters would ask for a second referendum if Remain won by a small margin ... Well, Farage did suggest this a few weeks ago: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...rendum-7985017. I reject the argument that to consider a second referendum is anti-democratic. As has been pointed out, the Leave campaign's case was based on lies and misinformation. Any country (or business, or ...) that based its decisions and therefore its future on falsehoods would be asking for trouble. The truly democratic thing to do is to explain to the public calmly what IS already happening in terms of the economy (sharp decline in strength of pound; jobs going overseas; etc) and risk a forecast of how the situation may develop in the near, medium and distant futures. I think the public are ready to admit that what was labelled by the Leave side as "scaremongering" is actually happening already, and it would be quite outrageous to put the country in peril by basing policy on manifestly false information. At any rate, the aim must be to see that the electorate is accurately informed. (And whilst I'm talking democracy, I'd make sure that all Brit expats in the EU could vote in a second referendum, and that youngsters aged 16 and 17 could vote, too). Even if you still think that asking people to think again, and possibly to vote again, is undemocratic, you surely realise that there is a balance here: you have to choose between insisting on a single democratic decision because you regard democracy as the first priority, or insisting that Brexit be dropped because without a decent economy democracy is more or less worthless. I'm sure that we will all bear in mind that when countries' economies go pear-shaped, the way is open for rather nasty characters to claim leadership. Could there have been any worse picture of a British politician than Farage gloating in the European Parliament the other day, claiming that no MEP had ever had a real job or created one? Disgraceful, unseemly, arrogant and self-agrandising behaviour which made me ashamed to be British. (As did his disgusting "Breaking Point" poster). And whilst the UK government does its best to ignore Brit expats in Europe, Germany's vice chancellor Sigmar Gabriel yesterday said that Britons living in the European Union should be given dual citizenship so they can stay when their country leaves the bloc. He told a meeting of the Social Democratic Party in Berlin, "Let us offer it [citizenship] to Britons who live in Germany, Italy or France, so they can remain European Union citizens in this country," In the meantime, I, as a British immigrant to France, am applying for French nationality as I don't want to take any chances. But thanks Germany. And wake up, UK. Edited July 3, 2016 by droopsnout Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Millsy Report post Posted July 3, 2016 There will be no second vote and you don't base any long term policy on what the markets are saying either. At least unless you are the ludicrous Mark Carney - who should be told once and for all to shut up. Fact is politicians have always been more in love with the EU than Joe Public, rightly or wrongly, and I'll bet a fair few remainers voted for what they saw as the least worse option. I don't think the campaign, such as it was, influenced the result one iota the third-raters on show probably simply reinforcing existing views. When it comes down to it all the Commission does is to redistribute tax payers money as it sees fit, while running a huge 'snouts at the trough never knowingly under-staffed' operation at the same time. To me the benefits on balance outweigh the faults but anybody who thinks it's a stupid way to run things which they want out of is making a perfectly rational decision I think. It is quasi-federalism under another name and that is not what I was sold in 1972. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Millsy Report post Posted July 3, 2016 There will be no second vote and you don't base any long term policy on what the markets are saying either. At least unless you are the ludicrous Mark Carney - who should be told once and for all to shut up. Fact is politicians have always been more in love with the EU than Joe Public, rightly or wrongly, and I'll bet a fair few remainers voted for what they saw as the least worse option. I don't think the campaign, such as it was, influenced the result one iota the third-raters on show probably simply reinforcing existing views. When it comes down to it all the Commission does is to redistribute tax payers money as it sees fit, while running a huge 'snouts at the trough never knowingly under-staffed' operation at the same time. To me the benefits on balance outweigh the faults but anybody who thinks it's a stupid way to run things which they want out of is making a perfectly rational decision I think. It is quasi-federalism under another name and that is not what I was sold in 1972. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skipcool3 Report post Posted July 3, 2016 I would have liked to known this before the referendum....https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skipcool3 Report post Posted July 3, 2016 I would have liked to known this before the referendum....https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
