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wortley

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Copy and paste failed. Given up. Fed up with being timed out on this site!! Wrote a placatory reply to Ed's thoughtful post, and tried to copy and paste, only to find my previous post pasted. Bah!!

 

Can't face writing it again, but, Ed, I wish you every success in your future business.

 

 

Thanks for your support, and I certainly hope that you didn't take my comments as a direct personal criticism. I have received feedback from French friends that suggests they too would love at least the opportunity to make themselves heard but are not optimistic about their chances. Ed

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Thanks for telling us we're all expendable so you, living in France, might get the Europe you want.

 

 

 

Wow, expendable! Where did that come from? Everybody has their own views as to what's best for them and their future but I think very few voted in such a way as to sabotage the lives of others. That was not the message I wanted to give. I simply want the policies which are stifling growth here in France to be relaxed and if the way to do that means to get people to wake up and start talking about a Europe where we can work together but not be shackled by a restrictive system of government, then so be it. Ed

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Droopsnout and Hhvferry (to a lesser extent), you both seem to have done exactly what I suggested would happen: "which each camp will seize upon to prove their point".
I don't believe that pointing out that a proclaimed "big jump in economic growth" when the GDP figures showed, in fact, a small fall in economic growth is seizing upon anything apart from wanting to make sure we are dealing with facts.

 

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Wow, expendable! Where did that come from? Everybody has their own views as to what's best for them and their future but I think very few voted in such a way as to sabotage the lives of others. That was not the message I wanted to give. I simply want the policies which are stifling growth here in France to be relaxed and if the way to do that means to get people to wake up and start talking about a Europe where we can work together but not be shackled by a restrictive system of government, then so be it. Ed

 

And the UK leaving the EU is the correct way to go about it? I don't think so. Policies that are stifling growth in France, that is a French problem, so why should the UK people who are perfectly happy to remain now have to put up with the disaster that Brexit will cause. You thank your lucky stars, Ed, that you, sitting over there, will suffer a lot less in your life than what Brexit has now condemned many, many more people to. And as I have said before, it is just not the Remain voters who will be affected, it will be a lot, lot, more besides. Chairman May is leading this country to a very sticky situation.

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Wow, expendable! Where did that come from? Everybody has their own views as to what's best for them and their future but I think very few voted in such a way as to sabotage the lives of others. That was not the message I wanted to give. I simply want the policies which are stifling growth here in France to be relaxed and if the way to do that means to get people to wake up and start talking about a Europe where we can work together but not be shackled by a restrictive system of government, then so be it. Ed

 

To me, at least, your previous post appeared to imply that subjecting the UK to some lunatic experiment backed by 27% of the country may, if successful, but who knows if it might be or not, possibly lead some future French government to try to do the same. If you're prepared to experiment with the UK without any idea if that experiment will be a success to me that implies that you have, at the least, very little concern for the UK inhabitants.

 

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I just looked back to the post that started this whole thread off. The bit about lorry searches is definitely true - I posted in the new build thread about my experience on the Caen route recently (in that the ship was full of freight). What I didn't mention (because it was not relevant to that thread) but will here (because it is to this one) is that security was noticeably more present than in previous crossings with BF. Armed soldiers patrolling very visibly up and down the waiting lanes and virtually every lorry being searched).

 

Where I will probably differ from the views of others is that I regard this as positive. There should be security and searches should take place.

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I see Wallonia has now given it's approval for the latest EU-Canada trade deal. They have obviously received some sort of inducement. A new complex for the EU parliament perhaps. Or a promise of semi-independence in 2046. Or a guaranteed 75% share of Belgium's wind. Something like that. Can't imagine there would have been a positive outcome otherwise.

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I don't believe that pointing out that a proclaimed "big jump in economic growth" when the GDP figures showed, in fact, a small fall in economic growth is seizing upon anything apart from wanting to make sure we are dealing with facts.

 

The facts are clear. The economy grew and by more than was expected. Some sectors went up and others down, reflecting national and global trends and as Jonno pointed out following a familiar pattern for the manufacturing sector. The overall result was growth. How can that be anything other than positive? If it shrinks in the next quarter, so be it. But for now people should remain positive, ignore the scaremongering tactics of the supposed experts and keep spending. Ed

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The facts are clear. The economy grew and by more than was expected. Some sectors went up and others down, reflecting national and global trends and as Jonno pointed out following a familiar pattern for the manufacturing sector. The overall result was growth. How can that be anything other than positive? If it shrinks in the next quarter, so be it. But for now people should remain positive, ignore the scaremongering tactics of the supposed experts and keep spending. Ed

I haven't made any value judgements either way as to whether it is a good figure or a bad figure, I've merely stated the correct facts, which certainly don't show a "big jump in economic growth". If that's scaremongering then we really are all in trouble.
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To me, at least, your previous post appeared to imply that subjecting the UK to some lunatic experiment backed by 27% of the country may, if successful, but who knows if it might be or not, possibly lead some future French government to try to do the same. If you're prepared to experiment with the UK without any idea if that experiment will be a success to me that implies that you have, at the least, very little concern for the UK inhabitants.

 

If we have to rehash this, OK. 27% voted for this experiment as you call it or change as I see it. Slightly less voted against. Others are unable to vote and the rest decided not to vote and trust in the wisdom of those who did and by implication accept the result. That is how democracy works. The accusation of people being misled will always be raised but nobody was coerced, brainwashed or forced to vote. Those who did believed in what they were voting for. Ed.

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If we have to rehash this, OK. 27% voted for this experiment as you call it or change as I see it. Slightly less voted against. Others are unable to vote and the rest decided not to vote and trust in the wisdom of those who did and by implication accept the result. That is how democracy works. The accusation of people being misled will always be raised but nobody was coerced, brainwashed or forced to vote. Those who did believed in what they were voting for. Ed.

 

And still do. And knew what the were voting for and why. And still do.

 

This 27% figure that has been introduced is a bit disingenuous really (expressing the vote as a percentage of the whole population, irrespective of age or eligibility to vote, is rather meaningless and ANY election result, even a landslide one, would look as if there is no mandate for anything expressed in those terms). But if we're going to go down that route we might as well make it clear that on that level of analysis, only 25% of the country expressed a wish to remain in the EU. Hardly a mandate for doing so. And 20% of the country was eligible to vote but chose not to do so, presumably because they did not have a strong enough opinion either way to make a decision.

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Do I hear some people saying that the UK should restrict the number of Europeans who can move in to live here, but that Brits should continue to have full freedom to move across to live in Europe? That all seems unlikely to happen .

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Do I hear some people saying that the UK should restrict the number of Europeans who can move in to live here, but that Brits should continue to have full freedom to move across to live in Europe.
Yes. It is called having your cake and eating it.

 

Anyway - I am waiting for someone to dig hard enough to find evidence that Nissan was paid to remain in the UK. Things come in threes, we have had Chairman May's embarrassing (for her) over her pro EU speech, we have had the lates Boris gaffe where his pro EU comments were revealed, now revelations and proof of a Nissan inducement will be the third.

Edited by Khaines

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This 27% figure that has been introduced is a bit disingenuous really

 

 

Nothing disingenuous about it. It's a perfectly straight forward statement of fact. Although you might not consider it important, the brexit vote will have profound implications for the whole country, and indeed beyond our shores. Whether anyone voted or not is immaterial, they are still going to be adversely effected.

 

Yes. It is called having your cake and eating it.

 

Well Boris, Liam and Michael said we could so it must be true.:)

 

 

 

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Why is it then when the Bods in Brussels or any other country forms a deal with a large manufacturing company in the same manner as we have with Nissan it's to be lauded but when the UK does it, it must be corrupt or open to ridicule?

 

When Vauxhall in Ellesmere Port were chosen to built the new Astra and have the new V6 plant over all of their other facilities allowing them to stop buying from BMW do you think there was an inducement there or do you think that maybe, just maybe the Wirral was chosen because they have the better workforce...?

 

No that can't be it... Britain being able to do something better than the rest of Europe is an insane idea, what was I thinking?

 

We do have a high opinion of our countries workforce don't we?

 

I know lets try this... Let's back our country and it's workforce rather than treat it with disdain. There's no chance of that while we have one track minds propagating short sighted innuendo.

 

This is the first of many such deals I'm excited about, just think, we'll be living in a country which can open it's doors to everyone and every country rather than just the ones the EU choose for us.

 

I'll wager that the UK will have a free trade agreement with Japan long before the European Union does.

 

Just a thought but, I wonder what inducement Meyer Werft or STX will offer BF to secure their new build?

 

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Just a thought but, I wonder what inducement Meyer Werft or STX will offer BF to secure their new build?

 

That's rather the point isn't it. For every "inducement" that has to be offered there is a multitude of others picking up the bill whether they like it or not. I fear because of the position we have put ourselves in we will end up having to pay more and more to maintain employment figures. With regards to Nissan they have already received a substantial inducement with the collapse of the £. In the short term that may be enough for them. In future the begging bowls will probably be out over most sectors of the economy.

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Just a thought but, I wonder what inducement Meyer Werft or STX will offer BF to secure their new build?

But Meyer Weft or STX don't need to offer inducements to ensure a newbuild, they already have plenty of offers and from what I gather they have large order lists anyway so don't need to offer the begging bowl to anyone, BF or otherwise. They can pick and choose. We can't, and an inducement to Nissan would be a case of the Government trying to cover it's back in case they take their factories elsewhere. We have hardly got people lining up to do business with us. These shipbuilders apparently have. That be the difference.
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Yes G4rth the pound has collapsed and no one is earning from it, certainly not the currency trader who sells sterling so it drops then buy's it back at a lower value just to start the ball rolling all over again to make more sterling... It is they who triggered the inflated price then the start of the drop on 24th June in the first place.

 

As for shipping, companies compete for new builds, they all offer inducements it's all part of the tendering process. It will go to the yard which offers to cover the greater percentage of added cost when build delays are factored in and the lower bonus for bringing the ship in pre-deadline.

 

NMUK know which side their bread is buttered... Sunderland produces more cars per worker than any other motor vehicle manufacturing plant in Europe regardless of brand it's why they chose Wearside for their £5m expansion over Spain. This new deal had nothing to do with inducement... Sunderland is simply more cost effective and will be even more so when the UK offers Japan a free trade agreement.

 

 

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What have past Conservative governments ever doine for manufacturing iin the UK? Killed it almost stone dead.

 

​What have past Labour governments done for manufacturing in the UK? Neither of them have a very good record, it's good ideas carried out well despite government that succeed.

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At the moment, the May brigade are doing all they can to get a smooth ride out of the EU. They will keep this up until we formally leave - or, correctly, IF we leave. But at this moment in time we are leaving and this Government will do all it can to make it look like we will be a great country again - but wait till AFTER we have left, job done, no effort needed any longer. That's when the journey up the Swannee will begiin - the paddles will have been thrown in the Channel. Rich Tories without a care and everyone else gets the crumbs off the table. So long as the rich and elite are OK...

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​What have past Labour governments done for manufacturing in the UK? Neither of them have a very good record, it's good ideas carried out well despite government that succeed.

 

Labour aren't in Government just now,and it was Thatcher that laid waste to nearly all meaningful manufacturing in the U.K.

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Isn't it the case that Governments accross the world will offer inducements to large organisations? I would think the most common form of inducement is a reduced corporate tax (or no tax) incentive - the workforce will continue to pay Tax/N.Ins which must amount to many millions of pounds.

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Do I hear some people saying that the UK should restrict the number of Europeans who can move in to live here, but that Brits should continue to have full freedom to move across to live in Europe? That all seems unlikely to happen .

 

I have no doubt that some may feel that way, but let me put a hypothesis forward.

 

When we first moved to France 12 years ago, there was some theoretical (or perhaps legal) requirement that you had the financial means to support yourselves. Nobody ever carried out such a check on us, although we quickly acquired the entitlement to healthcare cover funded by the UK.

 

I could see such a requirement becoming general, both for immigration to the UK and to EU countries. This might be satisfied by confirmed employment, healthcare cover (whether funded by the individual or their competent State), monetary assets or a combination of all 3. Such a requirement would address the understandable concern of most people over 'freeloading'. Genuine asylum seekers would be exempt.

 

None of this of course addresses the legitimate concern over the ability of a country's infrastructure (health services, education, housing etc) to handle even immigration that was 'funded' in one or other of these ways.

 

As has been said, a major concern for most residents like us in France and elsewhere is whether the UK will 'pull the plug' on healthcare cover once Brexit has taken place. My theory (admittedly wishful thinking I'll readily concede!) is that there'll be a compromise whereby w.e.f (say) Jan 2019, healthcare cover will cease for new emigrants. It will continue for existing residents. The UK would have a reducing bill and wouldn't alienate 500k+ expats.

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