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Poole Harbour Developmement

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Just as a friendly moderator type note... the subject of this thread is South Quay Poole, not around branches of "Fat Ron's". 

Can we please drop the discussion of the latter within this thread?

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2 hours ago, Hawser Trunnion said:

I just happen to think Poole ferryport could be busier than it is, especially with services to France.

PHC will need to be flexible over the use to which South Quay is put as one of its envisioned users, Sunseeker, is now Chinese owned.  I guess the fear is they could move manufacture to China -- as has happened with MG Rover cars and LDV vans.

The owner of Sunseeker has said in the past that he has no intention of moving production to China. He did, however, say that he may at some time produce a range of smaller craft there. Sunseekers are hand built, the expertise to design and build them is in Dorset. I don't think that those that are able to afford one would attach any importance to a possible saving in cost that Chinese production might allow. Indeed brexit has ensured that the only people that are less able to afford to purchase one are those that use the GBP.

Edited by G4rth

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3 hours ago, G4rth said:

The owner of Sunseeker has said in the past that he has no intention of moving production to China. He did, however, say that he may at some time produce a range of smaller craft there. Sunseekers are hand built, the expertise to design and build them is in Dorset. I don't think that those that are able to afford one would attach any importance to a possible saving in cost that Chinese production might allow. Indeed brexit has ensured that the only people that are less able to afford to purchase one are those that use the GBP.

Let's hope so.

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......and what about moving production to a location within the EU?

Fortunately South Quay is intended for larger freighters capable of taking out Sunseeker products for worldwide delivery as well as medium sized cruiseships.  Thus being outside the EU may not be that disastrous.

Edited by Hawser Trunnion

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Don't know where the previous post has come from.  Thought it was one I'd lost, but it remains valid.

I hope work is on schedule with South Quay as I believe there are number of cruise ship calls at Poole set for 2018, including some cruises starting and finishing at Poole.

 

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48 minutes ago, Hawser Trunnion said:

......and what about moving production to a location within the EU?

 

I'm not sure that potential Sunseeker owners, especially of the kind of craft built at Poole, are going to be troubled by a few extra thousands on the cost.

41 minutes ago, Hawser Trunnion said:

I hope work is on schedule with South Quay as I believe there are number of cruise ship calls at Poole set for 2018, including some cruises starting and finishing at Poole.

 

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/15240380.New_cruises_to_leave_Poole_next_year__and_here___s_where_you_can_go_/

Edited by G4rth

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I see "Radio Times" is offering a "cruise sale" on Astoria, I.e. two for the price of one sort of thing.  Two of the cruises offered at the end of August and early September next year are from Poole, the rest are from Portsmouth.  Perhaps the less ambitious cruises are from Poole.  I suppose the operator wants to see how it goes before going overboard!  I don't know about any other cruiseship calls booked in.

While Poole has all the necessary facilities I don't know how the cruisers will react to the temporary nature of the building in which they are housed, especially when compared with Portsmouth's airport terminal type building.  Maybe PHC will have to start thinking about a new facility both for the cruiseships and the ferries.

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With a small cruise ship it shouldn't be necessary to wait for any  length of time to check in and get aboard, especially as passengers are encouraged to stagger their arrival. When we took a couple of cruises from Port of Tyne a few years back it was just a concrete floored shed with temporary computer terminals set up to process passengers and receive baggage. The facilities are pretty basic at Corfu as well.

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Actually the facilities inside Poole's pax ferry terminal are very good -- comfortable and quite capacious.  It's just that the building is reminiscent of Croydon Airport before 1928 when a permanent building came into being (which still stands I believe.  It's an office block now and a listed building).  This could, of course, appeal to some!

I'm not sure about Astoria being that small.  She can accommodate 550 pax which means if fully booked there could be something like that number in the terminal building.  I think Poole's terminal could manage.

As far as ferry use is concerned the problem with Poole's terminal building is that it's too far from the car lanes which rather rules out its use by motorised pax.

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PHC have approved the construction of a new passenger gangway, which will primarily serve the Barfleur. The gangway, which is being constructed off site, is expected to be completed in September 2017. 

Good to see PHC investing in the port!

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Hopefully though primarily intended for Barfleur the new gangway will include a measure of versatility so as to allow other vessels to be handled.  PHC do seem sometimes only to do things at the instance of BF.  While this may be great for BF I'm not so sure about its value for the Port of Poole.  

I see "Radio Times" is still advertising its "two for the price of one" cruises from Poole (and some from Portsmouth) next year.  I hope this doesn't mean the take-up hasn't been as good as they had anticipated.

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On 2017-6-14 at 14:28, Khaines said:

Seen the new fenders for Lib - look good, much better.

Could they not be for other vessels as well?  What about MN Pelican?  She might be able to use RoRo 2 additionally when South Quay is finished, if not before.  And then there is the suggestion Etretat could replace the Pelican when Honfleur enters service.  As these vessels are single deck loading and discharging they might be better accommodated at RoRo 2 rather than the double deck RoRo 3.

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It doesn’t look very big, this South Quay, does it?  Arrow is occupying a good two thirds of its length, and Barfleur looks longer than the quay.  What sort of size of cruise ship are they expecting to accommodate?(!)

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1 hour ago, Gareth said:

It doesn’t look very big, this South Quay, does it?  Arrow is occupying a good two thirds of its length, and Barfleur looks longer than the quay.  What sort of size of cruise ship are they expecting to accommodate?(!)

Astoria is 161 metres... She who sank the Andrea Doria. Her draft is 7.9m so she'll be on the high tide only. Her sister Astor is 176m and has a draft of 6.2m (I think) so she may become a regular. None of the other CMV vessels are suitable.

MV Balmoral is too long after her refit. 

At 195m MV Braemar will squeeze in which will be something to see from the quayside... although she has the same engines as Barfy so could prove a problem;)

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The reason Barfleur looks so big, I think, is because the picture is zoomed in, the icons are bigger the closer you get but the actual picture doesn’t.  Liberation being the yellow HSC icon, you can just make her out underneath and she is a lot smaller than her icon.  

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2 hours ago, Gareth said:

It doesn’t look very big, this South Quay, does it?  Arrow is occupying a good two thirds of its length, and Barfleur looks longer than the quay.  What sort of size of cruise ship are they expecting to accommodate?(!)

Are the vessel outlines in the aerial photograph accurate in point of scale?  Don't forget Visentinis at 186.5m overall length have used RoRo3 -- which is where the blue outline is -- which was a surprise to some, including me.  The quay predates Barfleur at 157m o.l. and I was surprised she could get in and berth in 1992 and that was before the capital dredge of Middle Ship Channel for Cotentin. 

Be that as it will I am given to understand a 207m, 35,000grt cruise ship has been booked in for mid-2019.  I thought PHC have indicated that 220m is the maximum length for the Harbour subject to the vessel's manoeuvrability.  In coming to this conclusion they have had input from such as the Hydraulics Research Establishment at Wallingford in Oxfordshire.  

What is of more concern to observers of the scene is that there's been a suggestion some thirty cruiseship calls had been booked into Poole for 2018 but online research reveals none such.  Doubtless PHC officers will be tackled over this at the Open Meeting in a few weeks time.  Maybe they'll say there's the potential for thirty such calls as South Quay is also intended to take larger freight ships as well.

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I can't see South Quay welcoming any cruise ship longer than 200m, which is the maximum length the PHC state it can accomodate.

CMV have already announced 6 cruises departing from Poole in 2019 and a couple this year plus I wouldn't be surprised if small cruise ship specialists such as Silversea begin to take a  look.

Facilities are usually inspected prior to itinerary announcements so I think Cruise Maritime should be commended for showing a degree of faith even before any engineering works are complete.

HT I'm delving into the murky recesses of my mind here...! 

Poole quayside and the RoRo berth was the last job I was involved in for Dawsons before I was made redundant and decided to switch engineering hats back in the spring of 1991. ( W.A.D did me a favour by keeping me on longer than many others my age in order to finish my undergrad studies which they paid for) I was flitting between there and sea defence work in Southsea, staying in a static caravan at the back of the Queen Mary pub which my dad had rented for the duration.

I'm sure the quayside was lengthened during the reclamation then a year before the upper linkspan tier for Barfy was planned as I remember having to build small concrete blocks which are submerged in water to test integrity and a huge pour of around 30 tonnes of concrete.

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I thought the 207m long cruiseship in mid -2019 was a definite fixture.  Thus we'll just have to see.  Of course South Quay is for freighters as well so we'll just have to see what size of vessel in this category makes use of this new facility.

I think it is true to say of Poole that over the years the maximum size of vessel that can use the Harbour has been consistently underestimated.  I remember the astonishment when Free Enterprise V came in in 1983 on a special Poole-Cherbourg Twinning Association day trip charter.  "Won't happen again" I believe was said, "far too big!".  At the time it is fair to say they were using the old more restricted Main Channel and not the Middle Ship Channel as now but FEV's captain, Captain Mike Edward who was a local lad, had examined the charts and wasn't convinced the Main Channel was as restricted as was supposed and he could fulfill his ambition of bringing his ship into his home port -- as indeed he did!  Thus I think it's going to be a matter of experience which will determine what the effective maximum working size of vessel for Poole Harbour actually is.

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1 hour ago, Hawser Trunnion said:

I thought the 207m long cruiseship in mid -2019 was a definite fixture.  Thus we'll just have to see.  Of course South Quay is for freighters as well so we'll just have to see what size of vessel in this category makes use of this new facility.

I think it is true to say of Poole that over the years the maximum size of vessel that can use the Harbour has been consistently underestimated.  I remember the astonishment when Free Enterprise V came in in 1983 on a special Poole-Cherbourg Twinning Association day trip charter.  "Won't happen again" I believe was said, "far too big!".  At the time it is fair to say they were using the old more restricted Main Channel and not the Middle Ship Channel as now but FEV's captain, Captain Mike Edward who was a local lad, had examined the charts and wasn't convinced the Main Channel was as restricted as was supposed and he could fulfill his ambition of bringing his ship into his home port -- as indeed he did!  Thus I think it's going to be a matter of experience which will determine what the effective maximum working size of vessel for Poole Harbour actually is.

Sorry HT you're right.

Reading the BAM Nuttall presser South Quay will be able to handle vessels upto 220m rather than the 200m the PHC mentioned.

“This is an important step forward in the expansion of the Port,” said Jim Stewart, PHC’s Chief Executive. “It means we will be able to accommodate vessels up to 220 metres long in a variety of different sectors including yacht transportation, bulk cargo, short sea containers and project cargo. As a result, we expect to see up to a 50% increase in tonnage in cargo across the quays.

I've also noticed that during Phase 1 of the South Quay development that area of the turning basin is to be dredged to 9m with RoRo 2 & 3 getting the same in Phase 5... Phases 2 & 3 will see the Little Channel deepened to 7.5m.

It does indicate a significant game change and increases Poole's viability, let's hope the infrastructure can be improved to match.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/324350/pooleplan01.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/324355/pooleplan05.pdf

 

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Yacht transportation - do they mean the likes of the size of Deo Volente and her ilk?  The Happy Buccanneer was resting in the Bay for a while before going on her way a few months ago and she is huge.  Cannot see ships that size using the new quay, ships like the Volente are far better parking right in front of Sunseeker, makes better sense in their case.  Will try and get some pics when on Armorique next month.

Edited by Khaines

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45 minutes ago, Khaines said:

Yacht transportation - do they mean the likes of the size of Deo Volente and her ilk?  The Happy Buccanneer was resting in the Bay for a while before going on her way a few months ago and she is huge.  Cannot see ships that size using the new quay, ships like the Volente are far better parking right in front of Sunseeker, makes better sense in their case.  Will try and get some pics when on Armorique next month.

Happy Buccaneer would be able to use South Quay using her 'summer draft' configuration. Yes at 7m she sits deeper in the water but she's shorter than Barfy and displaces far less seawater. Vessels such as Deo Volente and possibly one of her Hartman Seatrade sisters could be berthed bow to stern.

We need to forget all the short termism smoke and mirror conspiracy nonsense regarding BF and Barfy and be less obsessed with why Cotentin left and competition for services... Brittany Ferries are playing a waiting game, pootling along with their name the only one in the frame with a historically sound business model.

Poole has a huge opportunity to be highly attractive to Home Trade shipping which is being muscled out of ports like Southampton & Portsmouth which are attracting larger vessels.

We've touched on it before, how Dover are already at saturation which the imminent stricter border controls will pressurise further. How Ramsgate have geared up and are now beginning to attract new trade.

With HMG pushing for Poole to exploit the Hamworthy freight branch line for inter-modal service... we've already seen the re introduction of stone freight... Poole could and should have a significant role to play.

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13 hours ago, jonno said:

Happy Buccaneer would be able to use South Quay using her 'summer draft' configuration. Yes at 7m she sits deeper in the water but she's shorter than Barfy and displaces far less seawater. Vessels such as Deo Volente and possibly one of her Hartman Seatrade sisters could be berthed bow to stern.

We need to forget all the short termism smoke and mirror conspiracy nonsense regarding BF and Barfy and be less obsessed with why Cotentin left and competition for services... Brittany Ferries are playing a waiting game, pootling along with their name the only one in the frame with a historically sound business model.

Poole has a huge opportunity to be highly attractive to Home Trade shipping which is being muscled out of ports like Southampton & Portsmouth which are attracting larger vessels.

We've touched on it before, how Dover are already at saturation which the imminent stricter border controls will pressurise further. How Ramsgate have geared up and are now beginning to attract new trade.

With HMG pushing for Poole to exploit the Hamworthy freight branch line for inter-modal service... we've already seen the re introduction of stone freight... Poole could and should have a significant role to play.

Indeed!

 It should be remembered that the max size for RoRo3 will be smaller than South Quay which is not a roro berth.  However I would guess RoRo3 will be big enough for any ferry likely to  use Poole in the short to medium term.  Maybe the outer end of the upper level of the linkspan ought to be modified to give it greater versatility.  It was built with financial assistance from BF specifically for Barfleur, I believe, and thus ships like Cotentin and Armorique can't discharge/load over both levels simultaneously when berthed bow on.  Fortunately they normally berth/berthed stern on!  However one doesn't know about any other ferry.  Norman Asturias was a stern loader only so wasn't a problem.  The other issue PHC may have to address at some point in the future is the pax terminal.  It's a temporary structure, sure, but will be OK for cruise pax but it's too far from the car lanes for motorised pax.  They did have plans for a new building immediately adjacent to the car lanes but these were abandoned more than twenty years ago when British Channel Island Ferries closed down.

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