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Gareth

General Discussions on Brexit

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27 minutes ago, Paully said:

Sorry, in my opinion the die has been cast and whilst the theory exists to of course follow your desired outcome,in reality and the cold light of day its not going to happen..I think deep down you know that

I don't think anyone is in a position to know anything at this point in time.  

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39 minutes ago, Paully said:

Very interesting. Those words I chose were not mine, they were those of David Cameron the PM when he said them. Have you forgotten??..We did abide by the decision of 1975, which is why we are having this conversation today. That however was to join the European Economic Community and being lied to by Heath regarding the `project` we find ourselves now leaving .

Since you wish to quote him If you remember David Cameron our ex PM also said that those that wished to leave the EU were "fruit cakes". So clearly, as no one is ever to admit an error of judgement or change their mind, his words regarding "fruit cakes" must stand. I take great exception to your assertion that Ted Heath lied to the country regarding the EEC in 1972. As somebody that actually took part canvassing during the referendum in '75 there was no confusion or lies regarding the EEC .If only the same could be said of the 2016 referendum to leave the EU. In '75 the EU, as it is today, was not an option on the table although it was obvious for all to see that to avoid a race to the bottom and maintain standards a strong pan European authority was essential, and no attempt was made to cover up this fact.

With regards to your comment that "the die has been cast" I would merely ask the simple question so beloved by 2 and 3 year olds - Why?

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There are very, very many people who voted in the 1975 referendum who felt completely deceived by Heath.  They voted "in" on the basis of what they subsequently viewed as lies and deceit, but bitterly regretted doing so and a fair proportion of them voted "out" when they next got the chance - ie last year.  Maybe no coincidence that the age groups most inclined towards voting leave last year were the same ones that got to vote in the 1975 referendum.  Many of them regard last year's vote as just the righting of a 40-year wrong.

Edited by Gareth
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Total lack of info by the Cameron's government led to all this and who have we leading the way out of the EU the one and only David Davies who has being sacked many times in the past and the pm is trusting him to lead us out in glory.or is he going to carry the can instead of May,gove,boris and the rest of the clowns.when it all comes to tears?i come from the North east and yes they voted to leave the EU and about all of them have said including my own son .they voted to leave thinking it would help save there jobs.how fool hardy they were thinking on them lines companies want cheap labour and will get there own way in the end.only wish it could be different.

 

 

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The battle over leaving the EU may possibly have been lost but until it definitely is in two years time the battle to rejoin will not start. If, as widely predicted, disaster is only two years down the road the "rejoin the EU option" will, to all but the most rampant brexit supporters, become the course of choice.

Edited by G4rth

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1 hour ago, Gareth said:

There are very, very many people who voted in the 1975 referendum who felt completely deceived by Heath.  They voted "in" on the basis of his lies and deceit, but bitterly regretted doing so and a fair proportion of them voted "out" when they next got the chance - ie last year.  There were just as many lies told last time as there were this time, and in many ways I regard last year's vote as just righting a 40-year wrong.

Thing is Gareth, is that at the time of the 1975 referendum, what we joined then, has in the decades gone by, turned into something completely different.  That is what many Leave supporters as miffed at.  I had only just started secondary school in 1975 and remember a bit about it as I remember it being talked about in a lesson.  But up until recent years there was not the dissatisfaction that there is now.  Brexit has brought a lot of things to a head - but that saying, I don't think leaving is the answer.

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G4rth

  I think you are in denial and that of course is your right, I have no desire to go chasing round the houses, so best if we leave it at that.

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32 minutes ago, Paully said:

G4rth

  I think you are in denial and that of course is your right, I have no desire to go chasing round the houses, so best if we leave it at that.

Indeed Paully. I will not convince you and you will have to try much harder to convince me. In the end, one of us will be proved correct. That, at present, is the only thing that can be said with any certainty by either of us. Perhaps that is something we can both agree on.

 

Edited by G4rth
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2 hours ago, G4rth said:

The battle over leaving the EU may possibly have been lost but until it definitely is in two years time the battle to rejoin will not start. If, as widely predicted, disaster is only two years down the road the "rejoin the EU option" will, to all but the most rampant brexit supporters, become the course of choice.

I think it's fair to say the referendum has caused a massive strengthening of pro-eu feeling (and not just in the UK). A few years ago is would seem preposterous that between 25 - 50 thousand people would march through the streets of London in support of the EU. If the elites, experts and youths (plus the other enemies of the people) are half as powerful as the media claims, they shall be a force to be reckoned with.

 

I sincerely hope that the promised land of milk and honey does materialise, but with brexit being a vehicle for so many opposing visions, I struggle to see how that will happen.

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This 'debate' seems to be rather pointless really as it largely consists of people repeating their entrenched views to other people who are largely  impervious to their arguments.

Nothing we say on here is likely to affect the eventual outcome one iota and all the arguments are anyway being recycled in the general media ad nauseum..

Is there nothing more interesting to discuss?

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22 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

This 'debate' seems to be rather pointless really as it largely consists of people repeating their entrenched views to other people who are largely  impervious to their arguments.

Nothing we say on here is likely to affect the eventual outcome one iota and all the arguments are anyway being recycled in the general media ad nauseum..

Is there nothing more interesting to discuss?

I don't think anyone could realistically disagree with what you have said Colin. However I think Gareth started this thread to avoid mention of Brexit in other threads. An aim which has, I must admit to my surprise, been proved to be remarkably successful.

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Yes this thread was brought out so we can all put our point of view over,so if you don't want to join in just don't bother reading the comments.or other words some may want to put there heads in the sand

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So far it has been a proper debate and discussion, not a squabble which happened last time.  I think there will probably be situations, which if relevant to the thread, this subject will possibly have to be brought into it.  Only if is directly relevant though, general subject debate can carry on here.

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Yes, it's all very civilised, much to the credit of all concerned, but to me it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. People are essentially talking at each other and not shifting their views in response to what is being said.

I certainly don't have my head in the sand, I am as interested in Brexit and its consequences as anyone else. Just not sure that people reiterating their views on here is actually achieving anything useful really. Nothing new being said.

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Sorry you feel that way. I started my contribution to explain what had gone on in the Northern areas of the country and how people reacted,  and why those in the more southerly counties were of a different opinion. I thought that was of some interest, and that it was new information to enter into the debate. No more no less.

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It may certainly have been of interest to some, but to be honest, you did not really say anything that was not already in the public domain. I can see why people in different areas and in different circumstances voted as they did. To what extent their votes were based on informed opinions is perhaps a moot point.

My overall impression of the vote was the depressing ignorance demonstrated by many people the length and breadth of the country on how the economy actually works and a rather touching belief that 'our' bureaucracy will somehow be better than 'theirs'. The current EU politicians don't inspire confidence but then neither do the UK politicians charged with overseeing the Brexit process. The end result is likely top be a convoluted compromise disappointing all concerned with all the expensive overheads that always accompany major changes.

From personal experience in the public sector over several decades organisational changes rarely achieve their intended objectives and cost far more than anyone ever anticipated. I don't see Brexit as being anything different.

Anyway, onwards and upwards and we will have to live with the consequences.

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8 hours ago, cvabishop said:

The end result is likely top be a convoluted compromise disappointing all concerned with all the expensive overheads that always accompany major changes.

From personal experience in the public sector over several decades organisational changes rarely achieve their intended objectives and cost far more than anyone ever anticipated. I don't see Brexit as being anything different.

Anyway, onwards and upwards and we will have to live with the consequences.

Exactly.  I do not see 27 othe nations allowing themselves to be pushed around our Government and there will have to be things that we will have to agree a compromise of defeat on.  Mrs May might well have had the upper hand, when dealing with the Lords and Commons here, and she might have well sat in the Lords trying to intimidate, but this will not work on the Continent and she will have to accept that things are not going to go the UK's way sometimes.  

One thing is certain, while we have Farage hanging around like a bad smell and making a fool of himself in the EU Parliament, and Davis as negotiator, then the UK is just going to look like a laughing stock.  If we persist in having everything our way no matter what, we are just going to be seen as a bitter little country that nobody wants to really have anything to do with.  We have to accept that there may be outcomes that are not acceptable to all.

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10 hours ago, Khaines said:

Exactly.  I do not see 27 othe nations allowing themselves to be pushed around our Government and there will have to be things that we will have to agree a compromise of defeat on.  Mrs May might well have had the upper hand, when dealing with the Lords and Commons here, and she might have well sat in the Lords trying to intimidate, but this will not work on the Continent and she will have to accept that things are not going to go the UK's way sometimes.  

One thing is certain, while we have Farage hanging around like a bad smell and making a fool of himself in the EU Parliament, and Davis as negotiator, then the UK is just going to look like a laughing stock.  If we persist in having everything our way no matter what, we are just going to be seen as a bitter little country that nobody wants to really have anything to do with.  We have to accept that there may be outcomes that are not acceptable to all.

Farage is the worst possible publicity for Britain.He wants to leave the EU but has given no alternative to the EU.He presumes that the world is an easy market for  Britain..................................What if Mrs May can't get a deal which is acceptable to the British public should she accept it,even though Britain will suffer financially or should the UK have another referendum to see what the public think.There could well be a General Election, in the mean time, if this drags out and what happens if Mrs May doesn't win !.

Edited by imprimerie

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On ‎11‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 18:17, imprimerie said:

Farage is the worst possible publicity for Britain.He wants to leave the EU but has given no alternative to the EU.He presumes that the world is an easy market for  Britain..................................What if Mrs May can't get a deal which is acceptable to the British public should she accept it,even though Britain will suffer financially or should the UK have another referendum to see what the public think.There could well be a General Election, in the mean time, if this drags out and what happens if Mrs May doesn't win !.

 

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1 hour ago, G4rth said:

May calls general election for 8th June.

Yes and this should be a chance for people to have their say and to punish the Tory party for it's frankly disgraceful self-indulgent behaviour in calling the referendum in the first place; they have forced a needles self-inflicted wound upon this country, wasted millions in holding the referendum and all it's associated costs and all for their own selfish reasons of 'party management'. Ken Clarke says as much in his memoir. But of course if the government is shocking the opposition is even more so and that, as we know, is the only reason Theresa May is doing this, because she feels she can't lose. So I hope people think long and hard before casting their votes and about what is really important to them and their families.

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