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HONFLEUR - New Build for Ouistreham Route - CANCELLED


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That may well be the view being presented for now, but things can change. My point being that until the several thousand tons of hull sat floating actually have a decided future, I wouldn't 100% disco

I get the impression we've put more hours into this thread than the German shipyard have into the real ship. Ed. 

And don't forget that the ship's real achievement was the production of zero CO2 emissions, zero waste water and zero satisfied passengers for the whole of the 2019 summer season. Ed. 

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1 hour ago, Gareth said:

I think you might be confusing her with Normandie Timmy.  I'm pretty sure it has been established on here before that MSM has no internal ramp, and I've certainly never seen any sign of one.

Nope I'm not, it is there.  Next time you are on Deck 5 have a look,  it is next to the upright supports and flush with the deck and as I said distinguished by the non-slip coating/metal grips as per the Deck 1 to 3 ramps and you can also see the outline of it in the deck.  To save yourself a trip you can even see it on YouTube where you can also see the yellow and black stanchions that are put out to guard the ramp stowed neatly against the supports  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4W3lNFKAPg

 

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By the looks of the ship guide (I know it isn't really a technical document), MSM can park vehicles on Decks 1 to 6.  2 and 4 are blocked off I believe. So assuming boarding takes place on Decks 3 and 5 (maybe 6 but not both), I would've thought there's an internal ramp to get between decks 5 and 6, and also 3 and 1. That's my logic but I could be wrong.

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3 hours ago, Gareth said:

Jonno it's the particular combination of freight v car capacity, high passenger certificate, cabin accommodation configured for 7-9 hour overnight passages but unable to accommodate all passengers in cabins, drive through on two levels (with no internal ramp for single-level loading) and length restricted to Ouistreham-max (as was in 2004) that I think makes her very specialist.

Tell me more about the planned developments in northern Spain - was not aware of them....

A total of 4.5 billion euros will be spent in north eastern Spain upto 2025 for the Atlantic Corridor MoS route with Zierbena being expanded including new rail infrastructure and an automotive hub VW & GM for their factories in Navarre & Aragon. Zierbena will also have two twin loading linkspans.

The whole port area of Pasajes is to be completely rebuilt, again with new rail infrastructure, roads & deepwater facilities. San Sebastian with also have new port facilities together with road and rail.The Spanish are committed to a volume of 800,000 inter-modal TEU's with both imports & exports arriving by sea at the northern ports rather than transit by road through France.

There's a fair bit of political negotiating going on, word is that Balearia will carry PSA built vehicles from Vigo & Mangualde through Gijon and that BF could well win the tender for GM & VW from the new hub in Zierbena.

 

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1 hour ago, jonno said:

A total of 4.5 billion euros will be spent in north eastern Spain upto 2025 for the Atlantic Corridor MoS route with Zierbena being expanded including new rail infrastructure and an automotive hub VW & GM for their factories in Navarre & Aragon. Zierbena will also have two twin loading linkspans.

The whole port area of Pasajes is to be completely rebuilt, again with new rail infrastructure, roads & deepwater facilities. San Sebastian with also have new port facilities together with road and rail.The Spanish are committed to a volume of 800,000 inter-modal TEU's with both imports & exports arriving by sea at the northern ports rather than transit by road through France.

There's a fair bit of political negotiating going on, word is that Balearia will carry PSA built vehicles from Vigo & Mangualde through Gijon and that BF could well win the tender for GM & VW from the new hub in Zierbena.

 

How does this square with "St Nazaire-Gijon" in the "Other Ferry Operations" forum?  How does Suardiaz fit in to this?  I thought the advantage they had was that they operated direct from Vigo where the car plant was and not have to transport the vehicles across country to Gijon.  And why do Balearia want two ropaxes in a hurry capable of carrying 800 pax and 150 tourist cars?  Hence reviving Visentini's long line of ropaxes with delivery for next year.  To answer my own question maybe they want to get their foot in the door in relation to operations from northern Spanish ports as soon as they can.  And if it's car carrying wouldn't a PCTC be more appropriate?

However perhaps we're going off topic now and there is the more appropriate thread elsewhere.

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1 hour ago, Hawser Trunnion said:

How does this square with "St Nazaire-Gijon" in the "Other Ferry Operations" forum?  How does Suardiaz fit in to this?  I thought the advantage they had was that they operated direct from Vigo where the car plant was and not have to transport the vehicles across country to Gijon.  And why do Balearia want two ropaxes in a hurry capable of carrying 800 pax and 150 tourist cars?  Hence reviving Visentini's long line of ropaxes with delivery for next year.  To answer my own question maybe they want to get their foot in the door in relation to operations from northern Spanish ports as soon as they can.  And if it's car carrying wouldn't a PCTC be more appropriate?

However perhaps we're going off topic now and there is the more appropriate thread elsewhere.

HT, LD LInes carried Peugeot vehicles from Gijon to St Nazaire before they carried on to Calais by train then put on another ship bound for Sheerness. The ship then carried on to the R.O.I.

2 Visentini's equals 400 cars.

  

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Both the picture and the video are good finds Timmy and demonstrate the point well.  I agree this ramp cannot be anything else but a connecting ramp between the main vehicle decks.  

So I stand corrected.  Maybe it is me that is getting confused with Normandie?  I'm sure I've read somewhere on here that one of the pair does not have an internal ramp.  I thought it was MSM but you have demonstrated this is not the case.

Mind you - I wonder if it has ever been used!  And how often it is tested.  Might be stuck fast in place!  Maybe used when MSM did her runner to Roscoff a couple of years ago?

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3 hours ago, Gareth said:

Both the picture and the video are good finds Timmy and demonstrate the point well.  I agree this ramp cannot be anything else but a connecting ramp between the main vehicle decks.  

So I stand corrected.  Maybe it is me that is getting confused with Normandie?  I'm sure I've read somewhere on here that one of the pair does not have an internal ramp.  I thought it was MSM but you have demonstrated this is not the case.

Mind you - I wonder if it has ever been used!  And how often it is tested.  Might be stuck fast in place!  Maybe used when MSM did her runner to Roscoff a couple of years ago?

I can't remember if Normandie has a lift or ramp from Deck 5 to 3, it's on the port side next to the casing and as you drive on over the stern you can see a 2 aspect traffic light for it.  Barfleur has a lift.

Testing and inspection of these sort of things are part of the planned maintenance system. Plus you wouldn't want to be caught out if you arrive at Ouistreham and find out the top deck of the linkspan isn't working.

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Well a lift would be ok for a contingency situation where you needed to unload a top deck unexpectedly through the main deck.  But totally impractical for regular service on a single-level only loading route.  Barfleur must have been unable to use her upper vehicle deck when she covered on the Plymouth-Roscoff route a few years ago.

Not sure how easy / practical / economic it would be to retro-fit an internal ramp into a 25 year-old vessel but of course the lack of one was what did for Pride of Dover and Pride of Calais.  If Normandie only has a lift it would reinforce my doubts about her suitability for onward sale.  I agree that as MSM appears to have one that makes her more appealing.

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When I took Normandie back in April I believe I was parked on a section of the deck bordered by waist-high yellow walls which was clearly some sort of ramp or lift. I assume that given its length it's a ramp which drops down at one end to the deck below but I'm unable to find any clear photos on Google Images to confirm that. Ed 

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3 hours ago, Gareth said:

Barfleur must have been unable to use her upper vehicle deck when she covered on the Plymouth-Roscoff route a few years ago.

 

Could they not have just lowered the deck or does it not have enough movement to lower it that far?

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Barfleur has definitely used her upper vehicle decks on previous visits to Roscoff, the lift would have been used. It can carry around 6 cars at a time.

For the Honfleur I'd expect a repeat of the Mont St Michel set up, hoistable ramp from Deck 5 to 3 and fixed ramps from 3 to 1 with bow and stern access for ease of discharge (as opposed to the Cotentin/Armorique set up where there is only one fixed ramp down to the lower hold).

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2 hours ago, Gareth said:

Ah I see - 6 at a time is not too bad.  How do you tell whether it is a ramp or a lift?

The length is the easiest way to tell, a lift would be just over one articulated lorry long, a ramp would be nearer three depending on the height of the deck below.  Ramps can also have some fairly substantial guard structures around them depending on how often they are designed to be used, if they are expected to have weight on them when in motion and the lifting and locking mechanisms. Côte d'Albâtre/Seven Sisters and the Racehorse Class are examples of vessels that have pretty substantial internal ramps that can be moved with around 3 fully laden trucks on them.

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I think a ramp would also have a far more irregular surface with ridges to prove extra grip whereas a lift would just be a smooth surface. But I might be wrong. And a ramp would only have chains or hydraulic systems at one end to allow it to pivot up and down whereas as lift would need them at all four corners. Ed. 

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The internal ramp on Armorique is about half the length of the ship and hinges either way.  Stern end lowered in Roscoff, bow end lowered in Plymouth.  If MSM's facility is a ramp then I would expect it to be similarly configured.

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6 minutes ago, Gareth said:

The internal ramp on Armorique is about half the length of the ship and hinges either way.  Stern end lowered in Plymouth, bow end lowered in Roscoff.  If MSM's facility is a ramp then I would expect it to be similarly configured.

Do they lock one end of the ramp in position with pins and then lower the other,  depending as you say on the port,  or is the fixed end simply held in position by the normal raising/lowering mechanism. If the latter, then perhaps it can work as both a ramp or a lift depending on the need. Ed 

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This is what i've got on MSM...

2,250 lane metres, 880 cars or 132 trucks.

She has a hoistable car deck made up of six panels on the port side, 12.9m wide, and six panels on the starboard side, 9.4m wide, with an overall length of 138m. The forward and aft panels in each level also double as 26m long access ramps.

There are two side hinged ramp covers measuring 40.3m long X 4.2m wide arranged over fixed ramps forward & aft serving the lower deck, these twin section covers give a clear opening of 3.8m and are watertight when closed.

A hoistable tilting ramp with a length of 48m plus 3m end flaps and a 3.1m driveway. This single section structure is located amidships and provides access to the upper vehicle deck from either the forward or aft end of the ship.

The direct access to the upper vehicle deck is through the visible weathertight door which is 6.5m x 5m.

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9 hours ago, Gareth said:

The internal ramp on Armorique is about half the length of the ship and hinges either way.  Stern end lowered in Roscoff, bow end lowered in Plymouth.  If MSM's facility is a ramp then I would expect it to be similarly configured.

I would say not quite that long, but still very large. Apparently it takes two minutes to lower and two minutes to raise that ramp, in either configuration. Four minutes is four minutes, especially in the busy peak season turnaround!  ☺

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