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HONFLEUR - New Build for Ouistreham Route

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1 hour ago, The Ferry Man said:

I really wouldn't want that much weight that high on a vessel - especially with  free surface. Eventually there must be a way for internal storage - look at the (infamous) Glen Sannox - she has internal tanks I believe.

No one was that worried adding all the extra weight for scrubbers, piping, flush water and steelwork.

 

1 hour ago, Cabin-boy said:

And what would they then do with the internal tanks? Use then for extra ballast to offset the added weight higher up and rebalance the vessel or something else? Ed. 

No idea although some of the container ships & tankers are replacing them with larger desalination plants and bioreactors for waste water management. There's also talk of onboard waste recycling and compactors which will turn it into energy for heating. 

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1 hour ago, colin said:

The original plan had internal tanks being fitted to these 3 vessels.

Yes you're right Colin but the tech BF opted for had boil off issues and looking at the kit being used on Honfleur, BF are still happy to go down the external route. 

Rolls Royce solved it years ago, it's a bit more expensive but it works. It's the system used on both Fjord Line ships which I think are the only two which have it. Viking Grace has external tanks.

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20 hours ago, jonno said:

No one was that worried adding all the extra weight for scrubbers, piping, flush water and steelwork.

 

Fuel will be a bit more though, and the added complexity of a free surface.

As an example, for the Pont-Aven, which has a heavy fuel oil capacity of 955 m3, assuming same capacity for LNG, which has density of around 410-500 kg/m3 (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/liquefied-natural-gas-lng-d_1092.html), Gives a weight of about 400 to 475 te. That's a lot of weight to have that high up.

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2 hours ago, The Ferry Man said:

Fuel will be a bit more though, and the added complexity of a free surface.

As an example, for the Pont-Aven, which has a heavy fuel oil capacity of 955 m3, assuming same capacity for LNG, which has density of around 410-500 kg/m3 (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/liquefied-natural-gas-lng-d_1092.html), Gives a weight of about 400 to 475 te. That's a lot of weight to have that high up.

LNG is 0.716 kg/m3.

Honfleur is having twin 175 m3 capacity removable fuel cells pulled by 2 HGV's then craned into position. Without doing the maths, I doubt it weighs around 160 tonnes.

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When the naval architecture and engineering team are working on stability calculations, they are concerned with [to paraphrase]  distribution and localisation of weight / mass both internal and external to the hull and superstructure. Here's a recent description from the tech director at an Italian shipyard who was summarising the various stages of detailed ship design:

"For every kg on the upper decks there must be a correspondence in the hull. In my younger days we had to do all this with our minds, pencils and slide rules, then calculators. Now the computers show us some numbers, which we can adjust to match the required performance and motion of the hull. Then the system does the remaining calculations comparing its figures with the specified rules." 

All vessels have their stability books checked and double-checked by the flag state authority (eg MCA) – with amendments every time you make changes to the structure or major internal elements. 

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6 hours ago, kenw said:

All vessels have their stability books checked and double-checked by the flag state authority (eg MCA) – with amendments every time you make changes to the structure or major internal elements. 

As well as the classification society.

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Surely it's more to do with a ships centre of buoyancy and corresponding metacentre determined by displacement?

 

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The Metacentre is based on both displacement, centre of buoyancy and centre of gravity. A weight below the ships CoG will lower it, increasing stability, and vice versa. hence weight above will require a corresponding increase in weight below the CoG to balance things out.

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It'll turn up eventually as these things do. Don't hold your breath.

The only thing that really matters is if you need to get to France there will be a ferry available when you want to travel. Doesn't really matter which one in the overall scheme of things. You are only on it for a few hours at most and your destination is the priority.

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Yes, and I suspect that if there was any new “news”, it would have been reported without needing to be asked for. 😉

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Given the experience Irish Ferries had, I doubt BF will say anything official until they are 100% sure of Honfleur's delivery, or entry into service, date. We may have to wait for the new timetables to be released some time in July to find out exactly how late she's going to be. Ed. 

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It's reported that the parent company is continuing to pay the workforce and suppliers also "state guarantees are being negotiated" but as we all know that EU law dictates that state aid is forbidden to be given to private companies, I don't see how it will help... unless the state has an option to take over the yard in a similar way to HMG taking control of Virgin East Coast?

Honfleur is being worked on so too is the RoRo in the hall.

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That sounds relatively similar to what the French government did with STX before selling 50% of the stock (plus one extra percent on loan for 12 years) to Fincanrieri of Italy once they had restructured and stabilised the finances. The difference perhaps being that STX had a full multi-billion-euro order book for 3 or 4 years, a reputation for (mainly) on time deliveries and was a prestige company that the government could not allow to fail. Ed. 

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13 hours ago, The Ferry Man said:

The Metacentre is based on both displacement, centre of buoyancy and centre of gravity. A weight below the ships CoG will lower it, increasing stability, and vice versa. hence weight above will require a corresponding increase in weight below the CoG to balance things out.

Absolutely. I was trying to avoid mention of metacentre and CoG for fear of starting a wholesale diversion from the original topic. IF anyone wants to start a new thread in the appropriate place, I may be minded to contribute further.

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7 hours ago, kenw said:

Absolutely. I was trying to avoid mention of metacentre and CoG for fear of starting a wholesale diversion from the original topic. IF anyone wants to start a new thread in the appropriate place, I may be minded to contribute further.

Why not start the thread yourself and explain what BF could have or possibly did do below decks to offset the near 17 tonne weight addition to Pont Aven which no one appeared the least bit concerned about then or now.

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I wonder when realistically we will see Honfluer sailing, seeing as it won’t be ready for the summer season BF shouldn’t be in too much of a hurry to get her into service.

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On 06/02/2019 at 17:38, jonno said:

We originally had a 4 berth outside on Honfleur which would have automatically have been allocated when the timetable was re adjusted.

We requested a commodore now it's back to Normandie and have been given 7107... we've never had that one and you do have to try them all don't you I'm sure it's a rule written somewhere? There's just two left for the set...00 & 03.

We've got 9006 coming back on Monty but as we've had that one before, we'll just have to book another trip won't we!

Many macaroons for you then!!

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19 hours ago, David Williams said:

The Caen timetable has now removed Honfleur and Normandie is showing up to November. However it is currently on the Le Havre timetable as well.

What are the pros and cons of launching her off-season? I suppose other vessels will need cover, and also any "little bugs" can be ironed out before the peak summer season kicks in and locks things down?

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2 minutes ago, hf_uk said:

What are the pros and cons of launching her off-season? I suppose other vessels will need cover, and also any "little bugs" can be ironed out before the peak summer season kicks in and locks things down?

By far the better way of doing it.  As you say, the gremins can be sorted, and exact date of entry can be flexible without being an issue.  I can’t imagine why a mid-summer entry into service was ever considered smart.

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