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BF Confirm Charter of 'E-Flexer' - Galcia & Salamanca

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Personally I wonder if PA will move to Plymouth full time on her old timetable, 2 Ply/San and 2 Ply/Ros with Cork at the weekend, it would certainly be good for us down in the far west.

Didn't Bretagne use to substitute for PA on the winter service to Spain because of her better seakeeping?

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Just now, cvabishop said:

Didn't Bretagne use to substitute for PA on the winter service to Spain because of her better seakeeping?

Yes she did and her better seakeeping was believed to be the reason.

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6 hours ago, Solo said:

Personally I wonder if PA will move to Plymouth full time on her old timetable, 2 Ply/San and 2 Ply/Ros with Cork at the weekend, it would certainly be good for us down in the far west.

Thirded. Would make sense, alongside Armorique.

CF, just, fits in Plymouth. Neither Salamanca nor Galicia is going to fit, unless work is carried out. 

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Stena's 3rd E-Flexer due next near is rumoured to be called "Embla". In Nordic/Scandinavian folklore Embla was the name given to the first female on earth.

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12 hours ago, jonno said:

Stena's 3rd E-Flexer due next near is rumoured to be called "Embla". In Nordic/Scandinavian folklore Embla was the name given to the first female on earth.

According to various sites, the 3rd E-Flexer will be 'Galicia'. The 4th being 'Stena Embla'.

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12 hours ago, BF Enthusiast said:

I really don’t agree with Bretagne being a better sea keeper than PA. 

What evidence do you have? It seems so often the PA gets slated.

In my case first hand experience of both ships in similar conditions, Bretagne is by far the more comfortable vessel in any weather conditions in my opinion.  I've been on Pont-Aven and she was rolling alongside the berth in Roscoff on a summers day just from her engines running!  I have a video somewhere of her pitching quite a bit on a crossing to Santander in calm seas and a low swell.  My last trip on Bretagne I only noticed how bad the weather was when I went out on deck.

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11 hours ago, TonyMWeaver said:

According to various sites, the 3rd E-Flexer will be 'Galicia'. The 4th being 'Stena Embla'.

Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 1 STENA ESTRID 2019 212 42000 3100 300 927
Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 2 STENA EDDA 2020 212 42000 3100 300 927
Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 3 STENA EMBLA 2020 212 42000 3100 300 927
Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 7 TBN 2022 240 42000 3600 300 1200
Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 8 TBN 2022 240 42000 3600 300 1200

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12 hours ago, BF Enthusiast said:

Hi,

I really don’t agree with Bretagne being a better sea keeper than PA. 

What evidence do you have? It seems so often the PA gets slated.

Such things are often highly subjective, but the general consensus over the years does seem to be that she is less comfortable in rough weather than either Bretagne or Cap Finistere. The fact that Pont-Aven has rarely operated year-round to Spain also seems telling, though of course this could be to do with capacity.

My only personal experience of an uncomfortable trip on Pont-Aven was back in 2004, when she had only been in service a month. It was probably the roughest trip I've ever witnessed with plenty of stuff flying around and damage to fixtures and fittings, and of course it's difficult to say whether another vessel would have done any better in those conditions.

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Bretagne was designed with an 'Atlantic bow' to cope with rough Biscay weather. PA not only has a much lower bow but it is set further forward making it vulnerable to damage by oncoming seas as was demonstrated not long after her completion in the Channel when the lower row of forward windows was smashed in and have been subsequently welded up and replaced by smaller portholes.

People on here have on several occasions remarked that she has a more uncomfortable motion than Bretagne under certain conditions but obviously some people are affected more than others.

PA has her faults but the general feeling on here is that people like her.

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2 hours ago, jonno said:
Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 1 STENA ESTRID 2019 212 42000 3100 300 927
Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 2 STENA EDDA 2020 212 42000 3100 300 927
Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 3 STENA EMBLA 2020 212 42000 3100 300 927
Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 7 TBN 2022 240 42000 3600 300 1200
Stena Line Ro-Pax Avic   Stena RoRo E-Flexer 8 TBN 2022 240 42000 3600 300 1200

Yeah, there seems to be different stories on different sites.

Capture.JPG

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1 hour ago, cvabishop said:

Bretagne was designed with an 'Atlantic bow' to cope with rough Biscay weather. PA not only has a much lower bow but it is set further forward making it vulnerable to damage by oncoming seas as was demonstrated not long after her completion in the Channel when the lower row of forward windows was smashed in and have been subsequently welded up and replaced by smaller portholes.

People on here have on several occasions remarked that she has a more uncomfortable motion than Bretagne under certain conditions but obviously some people are affected more than others.

PA has her faults but the general feeling on here is that people like her.

Every time I've been on Bretagne we've had very calm weather so it's difficult to judge! I've never had any problems with PA however, I've been to Spain in light-moderate conditions and whilst she does roll, the movement feels quite natural.  

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45 minutes ago, TonyMWeaver said:

Yeah, there seems to be different stories on different sites.

Capture.JPG

Stena RORO's own site gives the numbers and images of each ship in the programme which has been chartered out but does not include their own vessels. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.stenaroro.com/what-we-offer/fleet-list/&ved=2ahUKEwjN5vru7e3hAhXPy4UKHZl2AXsQFjAAegQIBhAC&usg=AOvVaw1cjGwuR_5-tFVxiq1llRER

Ed

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33 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

Stena RORO's own site gives the numbers and images of each ship in the programme which has been chartered out but does not include their own vessels. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.stenaroro.com/what-we-offer/fleet-list/&ved=2ahUKEwjN5vru7e3hAhXPy4UKHZl2AXsQFjAAegQIBhAC&usg=AOvVaw1cjGwuR_5-tFVxiq1llRER

Ed

That's right Ed but even BF when they announced No3 said Galicia 2021, Salamanca 2022 and the third in 2023. The quite senior bloke at Stena I spoke to has also said the orders were revised, as said, to compensate for I.F's 2nd new build.

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When you say IF's second new build, do you mean that Stena want a new ship ASAP to put on their lines as direct competition? Ed. 

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34 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

When you say IF's second new build, do you mean that Stena want a new ship ASAP to put on their lines as direct competition? Ed. 

They're always in direct competition on the Dublin - Holyhead route. IF already out do them in the freight stakes, another ships worth essentially. The new ship to partner Ulysses gives them a huge freight advantage, she'll be the largest RoPax in the world in terms of lane metres giving them an overall total of over 9600, near twice what Stena have now. Let's also not forget that WBY has a further 2800m capable of holding trailers too. 

The original plan was to have 1 & 2 for Belfast with their third (build No4) to replace Superfast X in 2021. The E-Flexer basically doubles what SFX carries. Now I'm led to believe it'll be Belfast 2019/Dublin 2020/Belfast 2020 as they're desperate for the Birkenhead route too... more desperate it seems than BF.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Stena then replace Adventurer with one of the 240m variants giving them even more parity.

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My impression of Bretagne over PA is that the latter is more stable in roll. Which means she rolls/heels a lot less but when it does it does it at a higher frequency, which I have found to be for me, uncomfortable.  Whereas Bretagne rolls to a greater degree but pauses before coming back, a more dampened roll in her behaviour, which again for me, I find more comfortable and great for a good kip!  It gives her a more relaxed ride so to speak.  I would say Bretagne pitches more than PA but again, presumably due to her shorter length and for me seems to do it in a more slow and graceful way!  

But like everyone says, very subjective and of course every ship has it's worst and best wave-length/frequency, so very hard to compare like for like.  

  

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They all take the route that will be most comfortable to the passengers even if it’s a bit longer and irregular.

EBC1C738-371F-4FDB-AD34-4EE65671B779.thumb.jpeg.a34070005807e1b226190a50be72b1a8.jpeg

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It seems from that report they were also in financial difficulties. I wonder if that's due to low deposits and subsequent trouble getting finance in place to cover the builds or penalties accrued due to late deliveries, as with FSG. Ed

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23 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

It seems from that report they were also in financial difficulties. I wonder if that's due to low deposits and subsequent trouble getting finance in place to cover the builds or penalties accrued due to late deliveries, as with FSG. Ed

So FSG and AVIC both in turmoil during builds destined for BF. Honfleur late! Not a good sign! Remember Van der Giessen de Noord?

Is there no money is shipbuilding these days unless it's a $1bn cruise giant?

Finland seems pretty reliable:) I think Armorique was pretty much bang on schedule from Aker back when...!

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10 minutes ago, hf_uk said:

So FSG and AVIC both in turmoil during builds destined for BF. Honfleur late! Not a good sign! Remember Van der Giessen de Noord?

Is there no money is shipbuilding these days unless it's a $1bn cruise giant?

Finland seems pretty reliable:) I think Armorique was pretty much bang on schedule from Aker back when...!

You are probably right. The STX  yard in St Nazaire (although they seem to change its name every month so that may not be the latest one being used) has got a full order book going through to around 2026 I believe. That's not to say they haven't had ups and downs and the government have had to step in at times but the ships are ordered years in advance with, I guess, big deposits. They have therefore no interest in building a (relatively) simple ferry between liners due to the technical risks involved and, I suspect, the danger that certain subcontractors and workers then start looking elsewhere for work when they are not needed and are difficult to entice back. Ed. 

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3 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

You are probably right. The STX  yard in St Nazaire (although they seem to change its name every month so that may not be the latest one being used) has got a full order book going through to around 2026 I believe. That's not to say they haven't had ups and downs and the government have had to step in at times but the ships are ordered years in advance with, I guess, big deposits. They have therefore no interest in building a (relatively) simple ferry between liners due to the technical risks involved and, I suspect, the danger that certain subcontractors and workers then start looking elsewhere for work when they are not needed and are difficult to entice back. Ed. 

The government own 47% of the St Nazaire yard, 2% is owned by workers and 51% by Fincantieri. That deal is all about a Franco - Italian naval alliance. Macron did the same with Alstom and their 50/50 deal with Siemens.

The AVIC group - Aviation Industry Corporation of China are state owned and have buckets of money.

The obstacle in China is that normal banking lines of credit are forbidden to cover overseas orders as 90% of overseas companies looking to borrow have no capital or credit history in China. They want the west to stay and invest, to build business there, not just turn up in the short term and treat them like Wish or Ali Express. The likes of Weihai can't ask their bank to lend them 100m to build an E-Flexer for Stena or a RoRo for DFDS as neither of these shipping companies have any offices or headquarters there. On the other hand in the four years since Jinling under the now defunct SINOTRANS has been under the control of CMB they've not had any obstacles.

The Chinese Merchant Bank have a specific offshore department designed to facilitate this and is why we're seeing their name as new owners of many of the yards due to the influx of overseas orders. AVIC won't lose out, CMB facilitate their overseas aerospace business as a gateway for western airlines to buy their aircraft in the future. It was they who structured the deal for their C919 to be powered by General Electric... it's a classy bird and will easily rival the A320 neo or boeing 737 Max (minus crap LEAP engines and crap software of course)

 

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I'm not sure even the people at Comac think the C919 is going to be economically competitive for international airlines to operate compared to established series any time soon even if the capital cost is half that of an Airbus A32X or Boeing 737. And the LEAP engines are what powers the couple of C919 they've managed to get off the ground? :/

I'm not sure we can count AVIC as being in financial difficulties but shipyards signing contracts with Stena should go in with eyes wide open and the knowledge hat historically only about 50% of yards survive the experience.

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12 hours ago, hhvferry said:

And the LEAP engines are what powers the couple of C919 they've managed to get off the ground? :/

Yes I know however once in full production they'll be powered by Chinese turbines designed by Comac using Rolls Royce blueprints. They opted for the newer debugged LEAP 1C due to their tie in with GE who also placed a large airframe order but now the launch has been delayed until around 2022, when the 1000AX will be in production, the 919 will be sold in standard form with these particularly as unlike the LEAP they'll have STOL capability... an advantage when giving the likes of Ryan Air and other budget airlines their sales pitch. Customers will still be able to have any plant they choose but it's more likely that the 3rd gen LEAP will only be fitted to the extended range variant.

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