Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
giloine

Barfleur lengthening ?

Recommended Posts

I’m sure I have some slides of Barfluer in her Truckline livery in the parents loft I must dig them out in the New year @Fine Whine I’m strangely drawn to that Sauvignon Blanc although the wife might spend every last cent on that blue labelled La Giosa, back on subject , are we in agreement Barfluers engines are a tad underpowered in less than ideal conditions? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, neilcvx said:

I’m sure I have some slides of Barfluer in her Truckline livery in the parents loft I must dig them out in the New year @Fine Whine I’m strangely drawn to that Sauvignon Blanc although the wife might spend every last cent on that blue labelled La Giosa, back on subject , are we in agreement Barfluers engines are a tad underpowered in less than ideal conditions? 

No, not me... Neither are they obsolete as they are still produced and very popular. You can have all of the Cap's 46000 KW and her massive Sulzers under your feet, it's still no good to you when your restricted to 10 kts in a narrow channel and the wind is giving it some.

Barfy's  maximum power transmission is 15623 KW. Stena's 30,000 tonne beast which carries trains across the Kattegat which a think gets a bit windier & choppier than Poole harbour, only has an mpt of 12961 KW. 

 A 1000 tonnes of steel, vehicle space and adding 9m in length doesn't raise your mean, bow or stern draft either, your increasing the water displacement due to the added length, deadweight and added cargo ergo, you sit lower... It's why originally Barfy's draft was rated at 5.2m when it's actually around 5.8m.

But hey what do I know, maybe I should have just stuck to Trent's, MT30's and EJ200's and not waste my D Phil on why Barfy struggles to get off the berth in Poole?

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can only relay what the Chief Engineer told me Jonno; ok he speaks out of his belly and was chewing gum at the time, but I'm pretty sure I understood what he was telling me, and that was she is underpowered in abnormal situations, ie violent winds from the wrong direction. And Mr B. said the same thing!

I agree with you about the Wartsila 8R32D not being obslete though; I know tiddly squat about engines apart from if they start that's great, if they don't I call a mechanic, but looking at their website yesterday it mentions over 4500 having been produced so I wouldnt have thought spare parts are a problem. The next time I see him I will double check the displacement theory...O.o

Chris

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Hawser Trunnion said:

And then what?  Jack in the service presumably, there being no word of any successor to Barfleur.  

Armorique would probably be the one if she was replaced...😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s an academic discussion because BF has no imminent plans to withdraw Barfleur.  By all accounts she seems to be doing well on the route.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

20 minutes ago, Gareth said:

It’s an academic discussion because BF has no imminent plans to withdraw Barfleur.  By all accounts she seems to be doing well on the route.

Nor in the medium term either. As I said in a previous post BF would be very happy if she poodled across on her current schedule for many years to come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She just plods back and forth every day quietly just getting on with her work.  Saw her go out this morning as had a walk along the cliffs (courtesy of being able to use a long closed cashpoint again) as haven’t had a wander up there since early summer.  Could hear her engines rumbling away from Bournrmouth...🙂

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sometimes wonder if members realise the full implications of what they are suggesting.  It seems to me they are suggesting Poole is a substantially unusable port and are maybe implying BF are ill advised to continue using the place.  Is this what they are saying and are they right?  If so where would Barfleur and MN Pelican go then?  Portsmouth?  But I thought I'd read BF's CEO indicate there wasn't room for their trailer service to Spain at Portsmouth.  How about Plymouth, after all that's where BF started from?  Maybe BF ought to pull out of Poole and then let us see what happens.  Would the location become just a picturesque tourist venue used by small coasters, yotties and boaters and the Royal Marines?  Would you advise BF this would be the case?  I don't think I would.  

It seems to me there is scope here for a serious commercial miscalculation -- as some members have pointed out over the years.  As it is BF have reduced their commitment to the port to what some might say was the irreducible minimum short of provoking a reactive management like PHC in going out and seeking alternative business.  Maybe BF wouldn't have been so fortunate with an and out commercially operated port -- which is why they have been able to get away with their policy re Poole.  Thus the South Quay development is rather a surprise for Poole and maybe unwise in light of the suggested problems associated with larger vessels docking at the Hamworthy berths.

I would emphasise I don't believe Poole to be quite as unusable as is suggested.  Personally I wouldn't like to be fixed with responsibility for advising interested parties that there are serious navigational difficulties and maybe not suitable for any regular daily cross-Channel ferry service operated by a ferry of modern size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’d love to know who the phantom poster is whose views you think you are parodying HT.  The picture you paint bears no resemblance to any posts I have read. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Khaines said:

She just plods back and forth every day quietly just getting on with her work.  Saw her go out this morning as had a walk along the cliffs (courtesy of being able to use a long closed cashpoint again) as haven’t had a wander up there since early summer.  Could hear her engines rumbling away from Bournrmouth...🙂

That sounds idyllic glad your keeping better and merry Christmas hopefully you will be having many more (uneventful) trips on her for many years to come.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Fine Whine said:

I can only relay what the Chief Engineer told me Jonno; ok he speaks out of his belly and was chewing gum at the time, but I'm pretty sure I understood what he was telling me, and that was she is underpowered in abnormal situations, ie violent winds from the wrong direction. And Mr B. said the same thing!

I agree with you about the Wartsila 8R32D not being obslete though; I know tiddly squat about engines apart from if they start that's great, if they don't I call a mechanic, but looking at their website yesterday it mentions over 4500 having been produced so I wouldnt have thought spare parts are a problem. The next time I see him I will double check the displacement theory...O.o

Chris

I think anyone who has engaged in car and motorbike repairs either out of necessity or as a hobby or both will recognise what I'm suggesting.  A lot of variations enter into specifications and sometimes the manual isn't correct.  Indeed at the risk of being defamatory I've heard the familiar Haynes Motor Maintenance Manuals described as the "Haynes Books of Lies" -- rather unfair really as they are very useful and usually very accurate.  However not long ago I discovered the engine oil drain plug on my car was not as described in the Haynes manual.  This was particularly annoying as I'd spent £40 on tools to do the job when they weren't needed.  Obviously I should have checked first but I was relying on the manual.

My point is you need to be very precise as to the specification of the engine.  I have heard for example there are eighty different versions of the type of Weber carburettor fitted to the Ford Capri Laser motor car.  A bit of a nightmare for a car restorer, I'm thinking, and an obvious need for precision.  I daresay 95% of the spares for Barfleur's engines are available.  It's the remaining 5% which could be a problem especially if it's big and heavy and very expensive to replace!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know what you're suggesting HT, I'm not alien to the internal combustion engine whether it be 2 stroke, 4 stroke, petrol, diesel, normally aspirated, fuel injected even rotary. I'm also aware that the weber carb was an after market fit on the Capri Laser and the problem was the venturi together with a 45mm carb as most opted for the largest size thinking it would produce more power, it did at the top of the band but not so for daily driving when you needed more tractability. The secret was to opt for the 40mm carb with a mid range venturi as it offered the best mixture for peak torque rather than peak power.

Marine Diesels last for donkeys because of their simplicity and low maintenance, they are not complicated beasts it's why many run 24 hours a day. The days have gone when ships engineers needed to fabricate engine parts in an onboard workshop, put an order in at the portside workshop and wait a month or secure a pump with a stewardess' panty hose or girdle elastic.

Parts are rapidly produced on computer operated laser cutting automated platforms to a far greater degree of accuracy than ever before which why they are so easily sought and far more reliable.

When I left Rolls Royce in 2010 I worked on commissioning the gas turbines at Pembroke power station, on No5 we found microscopic cracks in the main shaft blades. these are grown from a single molecule for amongst other things strength and flexibility. It took just 5 days for Alstom to deliver a whole new set.. grown from a single molecule. How long do you think it would take for BF to get their hands on any far less sophisticated part for a grubby diesel engine however small or precise one might think?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, jonno said:

I know what you're suggesting HT, I'm not alien to the internal combustion engine whether it be 2 stroke, 4 stroke, petrol, diesel, normally aspirated, fuel injected even rotary. I'm also aware that the weber carb was an after market fit on the Capri Laser and the problem was the venturi together with a 45mm carb as most opted for the largest size thinking it would produce more power, it did at the top of the band but not so for daily driving when you needed more tractability. The secret was to opt for the 40mm carb with a mid range venturi as it offered the best mixture for peak torque rather than peak power.

Marine Diesels last for donkeys because of their simplicity and low maintenance, they are not complicated beasts it's why many run 24 hours a day. The days have gone when ships engineers needed to fabricate engine parts in an onboard workshop, put an order in at the portside workshop and wait a month or secure a pump with a stewardess' panty hose or girdle elastic.

Parts are rapidly produced on computer operated laser cutting automated platforms to a far greater degree of accuracy than ever before which why they are so easily sought and far more reliable.

When I left Rolls Royce in 2010 I worked on commissioning the gas turbines at Pembroke power station, on No5 we found microscopic cracks in the main shaft blades. these are grown from a single molecule for amongst other things strength and flexibility. It took just 5 days for Alstom to deliver a whole new set.. grown from a single molecule. How long do you think it would take for BF to get their hands on any far less sophisticated part for a grubby diesel engine however small or precise one might think?

I think it's cost.  Is it worth it?  In the case of a ship this will include the cost of removal and replacement of components, likely to involve a lot of work if it's a major item.  Doubtless if it happens again with Barfleur, i.e. a cracked entablature, we'll find out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes but maintenance and repair costs are offset by the taxman and are also pre costed into their yearly budgets plus I've tried to explain the entablature scenario in modern plant, you're more likely to discover hens teeth or walk behind a rocking horse with a shovel.

Of course it's also worth it, BF have a signed contract with both ports which they are committed to which no doubt has financial penalty clauses regarding service delivery. The PHC will also need to comply with an SLA, a service level agreement. It cuts both ways. Neither party can just walk or sail away. 

Have a gander at this, you'll also notice that rather than being obsolete her 8r32's can even run on gas if so desired: Not bad for an engine designed in the 1980's.

https://www.ruysch.nl/en/wartsila-32/

HT, Barfy is a fine ship, she has given and continues to give excellent service which many of us have enjoyed over the past quarter of a century. Think about that... a quarter of a century, at 49 I wish I was still as good as I was at 24!

During that time she's had updates and improvements to her maneuvering, communications, positioning and a whole host of other good stuff none of us get to see or appreciate.

BF don't do sentiment and don't waste money. If they felt that the route or vessel were no longer fit for purpose they would not have spent €10m on her so she'd comply with emission regs, a procedure which also demands a fair degree of engine modification.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just booked up Supersize Barfy - in other words Armorique.  If I remember correctly she needed tug assistsnce in Poole last time she was here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Khaines said:

I just booked up Supersize Barfy - in other words Armorique.  If I remember correctly she needed tug assistsnce in Poole last time she was here. 

Yes and Norman Asturias required the use of the Herbert Ballam on more than one occasion.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can cite all the technical fuzzbuzz in the world but this is Business and thus the ultimate determinator is Money.  Does it pay?  Is it worth it?  There must be commercial advantage of some sort if something is kept going when it's questionable whether these criteria are satisfied.  At Poole I have no doubt it is the fear that competition could emerge with the distinct possibility of an adverse impact on BF's other services.  Thus far BF have been lucky in that the various withdrawals of Barfleur and LD's shortlived Spanish service have not had this effect.  Would competition of any sort emerge whatever the situation? If not why keep the service going especially if big money falls to be spent on the ship involved?  I think it's all in the lap of the gods and we'll just have to wait and see. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you think of not that many moons ago when Barfy was up the river or in Dover, she has more than earned her keep since she has returned.  Money would not have been spent on her like it has otherwise and she would be living out her days somewhere far away from here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, jonno said:

Yes and Norman Asturias required the use of the Herbert Ballam on more than one occasion.

All this only serves to support a view of  Poole, that it is an unsatisfactory roro ferry port and that any meaningful competition with BF is most unlikely to emerge from this quarter.  It supports my view that BF will keep Barfleur going until she falls to pieces and then close the service confident that'll be the end of ferry services to France.

But am I right?  Is too much attention being paid to this need for tug assistance?  How often does it happen?  I recall Free Enterprise V needed a tug to pull her stern away from the Quay in 1983 and that Herbert Ballam accompanied Bretagne out when she stood in for Barfleur but didn't assist the ferry get off the berth.  Other than this I've not known a tug to be needed.  Armorique didn't when I was on board.  Again we'll have to wait and see how these larger -- far larger than Barfleur -- cruise ships and freighters PHC are hoping for get on.  They'll be using South Quay, a berth closely adjacent to RoRo 3 so the difficulties will presumably be the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread appears to be going round in circles bearing ever-decreasing resemblance to reality and ever-increasing repetition of posts previously made.  I’m therefore going to close it for the time being.   But if anyone has anything new to add / report regarding any matters relating to the lengthening of Barfleur then please drop me a PM and I’ll re-open it for you.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...