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6 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

Any particular port you had in mind? Ed

No, just any small port that has expressed interest in the past in increasing it's container business, has the capacity and purchased a new crane last year. I did hear of one but it's name has slipped my mind at present. :D

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Could you enlighten me to which government you are referring? At the moment we don't have one. We have woman who, in Spike Milligan's memorable phrase, does Prime Minister impressions and not very goo

I found this Guardian article interesting - not because it's the Guardian, but because it's the opinion of the executive director of a logistics company which employs 6000 staff. It dates from Novembe

Exactly - there is this delusion that Britain was in some way being dictated to. It's so frustratingly and simplistically black and white. Britain was/is part of a mutually beneficial club with much d

36 minutes ago, G4rth said:

As Wortly has rightly pointed out there is one UK- EU border where there is free movement at present. Neither the UK nor Irish governments have been able to stop the "holiday sheep" fraud although they know it exists. Surely there will be no incentive to continue any UK-ROI or ROI-IOM ferry services in future when one can just drive into the North without any checks as has been promised and catch a ferry to the mainland from there. The link to the Irish press from John is interesting and could see an increase in container business for small UK ports.

Well, technically, no, that was not what Wortley’s post was about at all.  He was not talking about the UK-Eire border, he was talking about the NI-Scotland border.  And there is nothing in anybody’s blueprint that seeks to change the free movement of people across that border.

I do agree that the UK (aka NI)-Eire border is a minefield and has no obvious solution (within the respective positions of the UK and EU sides).  It is anybody’s guess how that will resolve, and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that it may end up becoming a transferred problem to the NI-Scotland border.  As far as the Eire-England and Eire-Wales borders are concerned, I agree that is where there is the potential for free (unchecked) movement of people to change, and to that end I’d challenge Wortley’s post and suggest the major change will be most likely at Holyhead, rather than Cairnryan.

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I have a question relating to all this. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

In France you are supposed to be able to provide photo ID if requested and as such most people over the age of 15 carry their cards with them when out and about. Those cards also allow travel within Europe and to some other nations. For other destinations, people need to get a passport.

As I understand it, it is still not necessary for UK citizens to provide such photo ID and therefore unless you plan to travel abroad there is no requirement for people to hold a passport. Do residents of Scotland, Wales and England need to show passports when travelling to Ulster or will a driver's licence suffice (but then what about accompanying children)? And vice versa?

The reason for the question being that, if no photo ID is currently required, residents of Ulster will perhaps be compelled to hold passports in order to access the rest of the UK if what is being suggested is true. 

Ed

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20 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

I have a question relating to all this. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

In France you are supposed to be able to provide photo ID if requested and as such most people over the age of 15 carry their cards with them when out and about. Those cards also allow travel within Europe and to some other nations. For other destinations, people need to get a passport.

As I understand it, it is still not necessary for UK citizens to provide such photo ID and therefore unless you plan to travel abroad there is no requirement for people to hold a passport. Do residents of Scotland, Wales and England need to show passports when travelling to Ulster or will a driver's licence suffice (but then what about accompanying children)? And vice versa?

The reason for the question being that, if no photo ID is currently required, residents of Ulster will perhaps be compelled to hold passports in order to access the rest of the UK if what is being suggested is true. 

Ed

In theory you don't need either a passport or photo ID to visit Ulster if you intend to swim or row yourself there. If you intend to fly or travel by ferry I don't think any companies will transport you without photo ID of some sort. I think you will find that different companies have different ID requirements so perhaps a passport would be the safest bet.

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14 minutes ago, G4rth said:

In theory you don't need either a passport or photo ID to visit Ulster if you intend to swim or row yourself there. If you intend to fly or travel by ferry I don't think any companies will transport you without photo ID of some sort. I think you will find that different companies have different ID requirements so perhaps a passport would be the safest bet.

Correct - Even travelling fro IOM to UK by ship or aeroplane you need photo ID. This can be in the form of a valid driving licence, A Passport or a valid bus pass !!!

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Thanks for that information. Perhaps now would be a good time for the government to revive the abandoned ID card plan to ensure that all UK citizens are still able to travel freely within the country no matter what the future port and airport security situation turns out to be. Ed

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4 hours ago, G4rth said:

Surely there will be no incentive to continue any UK-ROI or ROI-IOM ferry services in future

Maybe Stena should cancel the E-flexer orders then and I.F their second new build to replace Epsilon on the Dublin-Holyhead route...

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8 hours ago, jonno said:

Maybe Stena should cancel the E-flexer orders then and I.F their second new build to replace Epsilon on the Dublin-Holyhead route...

??. Sorry, thought Stena were in the charter business as well as the ferry business. Also didn't realize that ferries were only able to be used on their original route regardless of changing market conditions. Silly me.

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2 hours ago, G4rth said:

??. Sorry, thought Stena were in the charter business as well as the ferry business. Also didn't realize that ferries were only able to be used on their original route regardless of changing market conditions. Silly me.

Stena own Fishguard, Holyhead & Loch Ryan ports. ICG own Irish Ferries, Dublin container terminal & Belfast container terminal. The Irish railway own Rosslare.

There's a huge incentive to carry on with all of the routes.

 

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15 minutes ago, jonno said:

Stena own Fishguard, Holyhead & Loch Ryan ports. ICG own Irish Ferries, Dublin container terminal & Belfast container terminal. The Irish railway own Rosslare.

There's a huge incentive to carry on with all of the routes.

 

The other part of the equation is having enough customers willing to pay for your service. Alternatives without the customs/immigration issues that might arise on Eire - UK routes could prove a more attractive proposition in the future.

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I'm old enough to remember traveling before we entered the EU. It wasn't passport control that was the problem, it was Customs. I've known people having their cars stripped and left in pieces for no reason. I once had a tussle with a Customs Officer who was trying to deliberately open my camera case onto a concrete floor from shoulder height.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

The one comment that resonates with me is the "customs " issue.    I remember the hassle of entering the uk before the EU membership. Ignore the duty free issues; it was the inquisition of every car, what have you bought? where from? etc. etc. Not that I am worried about hiding stuff; its the time it takes;  bearing in mind border control at Portsmouth is never more than 50% manned in the kiosks.   I then extend that to every lorry.    They will need searching as I am sure that post a hardish brexit our friends in France will not be opening nearly every lorry to look inside it will be the responsibility of the uk port  so its check them or not woryy about illegals.   Thats why I wondered how Portsmouth could cope.  Assuming any lorries will still be coming.

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20 hours ago, Redwards said:

The one comment that resonates with me is the "customs " issue.    I remember the hassle of entering the uk before the EU membership. Ignore the duty free issues; it was the inquisition of every car, what have you bought? where from? etc. etc. Not that I am worried about hiding stuff; its the time it takes;  bearing in mind border control at Portsmouth is never more than 50% manned in the kiosks.   I then extend that to every lorry.    They will need searching as I am sure that post a hardish brexit our friends in France will not be opening nearly every lorry to look inside it will be the responsibility of the uk port  so its check them or not woryy about illegals.   Thats why I wondered how Portsmouth could cope.  Assuming any lorries will still be coming.

I'd imagine that lorries heading out will have a tough time. Even if the UK decides to allow everything in, the EU will want to maintain the integrity of its customs border. The recent discussions around "rules of origin" highlight just how complex these matters are.

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On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 22:36, Cabin-boy said:

Thanks for that information. Perhaps now would be a good time for the government to revive the abandoned ID card plan to ensure that all UK citizens are still able to travel freely within the country no matter what the future port and airport security situation turns out to be. Ed

Could you enlighten me to which government you are referring? At the moment we don't have one. We have woman who, in Spike Milligan's memorable phrase, does Prime Minister impressions and not very good ones at that, at the head of a ragbag cabinet who probably couldn't agree with each other on the time of day and with no real parliamentary majority leave alone mandate. ID cards were too hot a potato for a government which had an overall majority of over 200 seats, no chance with this 'administration'. The reason for threads like this is quite simple. The present lot - who are in office but not really in power - don't even really acknowledge the stark and challenging questions they are facing so there's no chance of them finding the answers. Whichever side of the divide you are it's pretty frightening I think.

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On 25/02/2018 at 20:24, Redwards said:

The one comment that resonates with me is the "customs " issue.    I remember the hassle of entering the uk before the EU membership. Ignore the duty free issues; it was the inquisition of every car, what have you bought? where from? etc. etc. Not that I am worried about hiding stuff; its the time it takes;  bearing in mind border control at Portsmouth is never more than 50% manned in the kiosks.   I then extend that to every lorry.    They will need searching as I am sure that post a hardish brexit our friends in France will not be opening nearly every lorry to look inside it will be the responsibility of the uk port  so its check them or not woryy about illegals.   Thats why I wondered how Portsmouth could cope.  Assuming any lorries will still be coming.

We came though Ouistreham last night to find MSM delayed by 45 minutes (it's not been my week!) and the port in a degree of some panic. With the temperatures being quite so Arctic I naively thought the migrants would be huddled up in shelters somewhere. Wrong - plenty were hanging around by the second roundabout, we went through the only car control booth open and sat with the engine running awaiting the delayed arrival. Suddenly a smiley face with balaclava and bobble hat appeared at the car window as though thumbing a lift, then another who tried to get into the adjacent car, and at least half a dozen trying to get on lorries. Despite there being numerous police cars in town it took a few minutes for the "on foot" brigade of gendarmes to appear and frog march them away but by this time any semblance of car control had vanished and it was just freight being searched, and pretty rigourously too.

It is virtually impossible to check every vehicle prior to embarkation in France, I would say completely out of the question when up to 1000 cars arrive in Portsmouth on busy summer evenings. It's not really working now, how can Brexit make any difference?

Chris

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1 hour ago, Fine Whine said:

... how can Brexit make any difference?

Well, it doesn't look as if it's going to make it easier!

Maybe Boris had the answer to goods import duties this morning on R4 when he suggested that the NI/Eire border can be compared to the border between Camden and Westminster. All you need is ANPR and you can slap some tax on. Could do the same at all the ports. Simple! Apparently, you don't even have to know what goods are being transported.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43210156

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Typical Boris the way it's put over but why not? Vehicles are always being tracked, if loads are logged online, which isn't a problem these days they already fill the paperwork in.  Then it's just question of how many need to be checked.  I know that might be simplistic but no reason it can't be made to work.

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1 hour ago, Solo said:

Typical Boris the way it's put over but why not? Vehicles are always being tracked, if loads are logged online, which isn't a problem these days they already fill the paperwork in.  Then it's just question of how many need to be checked.  I know that might be simplistic but no reason it can't be made to work.

We could use the same principle at French Borders too.

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13 hours ago, Solo said:

Typical Boris the way it's put over but why not? Vehicles are always being tracked, if loads are logged online, which isn't a problem these days they already fill the paperwork in.  Then it's just question of how many need to be checked.  I know that might be simplistic but no reason it can't be made to work.

No doubt the majority of vehicle users are honest, but using such a system runs the risk of interference with the cargo en route, making any online record of the original load quite useless. And sealed units would need to be checked physically at a border point.

Since my previous post, there has been a leak of a letter from Johnson to May in which he seems to admit that a hard border may in fact come about. I linked to a Guardian article last time, so here's the Telegraph's article, though you may need to register: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/02/27/boris-johnson-raises-prospect-hard-border-ireland-leaked-letter/

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Who would have thought the Irish Border would be such an issue? We’ve only years and years of history to go by, it truly does show how incompetent this government is, although I doubt Labour would do any better, not to mention the tension that the deal will stir up in Scotland.

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Despite Johnson's letter to May, Downing Street has now reiterated that there will be no hard border. No surprise there.

Johnson is now blustering about how the Irish border issue is being used by the EU for political purposes, to try to make it impossible for the UK to leave. The fact sems to be that no-one yet has come up with a means of checking vehicles crossing the Eire/NI border without border posts.

However, on R5 this morning, there was an interesting interview with a Swedish diplomat about how Sweden deals with its borders. He seemed happy with those arrangements, accepting that honesty is highly important, and saying that police intelligence catches most illegal loads. I can see that little might get through to Sweden that shouldn't (drugs, though?), but feel that the UK might be a more likely/profitable target for the criminal and/or terrorist fraternity.

Edited by Jardinier
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