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Richie

Environmentally friendly???

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1st arrival in Plymouth of the season for Pont Aven. Despite poor visibility much past the breakwater you could see her coming from some distance surrounded by a smog of white smoke. Perhaps she was practising a smoke screen to hide her approach? 

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Edited by Richie
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That isn't white smoke - its the water vapour from the scrubbers which are removing the particulates etc. from the engine exhausts for environmentally friendly disposal!

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Hi, yes I realise that, as will the majority of those on this forum. Joe Public however probably won't. Perhaps I should write "smoke" instead?

What I will say is the appeared to be significantly more water vapour emitted than Armorique. 

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9 minutes ago, Richie said:

What I will say is the appeared to be significantly more water vapour emitted than Armorique. 

That's true but Armorique produces significantly less energy and has far smaller onboard main engine driven generators & diesel generators. The Pont generates twice as much.

There's the atmospherics and design too, possibly why Mr Bishop noticed  it on Monty with a similar monstrous build. Believe it or not but MSM generates less power than Armorique.

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Jonno, assuming she was coming up from Spain and entering the zone in which scrubbers are required, could it be that she had only recently activated them? Do they run all the time or is there a bypass system for when outside the zone? If that were the case, would the white smoke seen here in fact simply be steam generated by water trapped in the scrubber pipes vaporising as the system reaches its full operating temperature (and more visible given the current cold conditions in the same way as a car exhaust appears to smoke more on cold mornings) ? Ed. 

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22 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

Jonno, assuming she was coming up from Spain and entering the zone in which scrubbers are required, could it be that she had only recently activated them? Do they run all the time or is there a bypass system for when outside the zone? If that were the case, would the white smoke seen here in fact simply be steam generated by water trapped in the scrubber pipes vaporising as the system reaches its full operating temperature (and more visible given the current cold conditions in the same way as a car exhaust appears to smoke more on cold mornings) ? Ed. 

Ed, None of the BF fleet burn HFO so none of the scrubbers fitted are used. The steam is generated by the Diesel Particulate Filters which are far more aggressive than those used domestically. None of the fleet will need any maintenance or dockyard work prior to the emission standard harmonization of 0.05 as the vessels are already lower at 0.01.

When a BF vessel burns grey/black for a short period it's ash, soot accumulates due to Low Sulphur Diesel burning at a lower temp so the residue within the filter is burned at a much higher temp to destroy it. it's called regeneration. Most ships use active, rather than passive or forced regen'.

I don't know of any RoPax or Cruise Ferry which uses the English Channel which does burn HFO, even I.F and Stena burn diesel so too do those on the North Sea.

 

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When we were on the rear deck of Pont coming back in August last year there was a fair bit of water on the rear deck , I certainly never smelt diesel fumes though I would have presumed I would have if the wind was blowing the water that way .

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2 hours ago, jonno said:

Ed, None of the BF fleet burn HFO so none of the scrubbers fitted are used. The steam is generated by the Diesel Particulate Filters which are far more aggressive than those used domestically. None of the fleet will need any maintenance or dockyard work prior to the emission standard harmonization of 0.05 as the vessels are already lower at 0.01.

When a BF vessel burns grey/black for a short period it's ash, soot accumulates due to Low Sulphur Diesel burning at a lower temp so the residue within the filter is burned at a much higher temp to destroy it. it's called regeneration. Most ships use active, rather than passive or forced regen'.

I don't know of any RoPax or Cruise Ferry which uses the English Channel which does burn HFO, even I.F and Stena burn diesel so too do those on the North Sea.

 

Hi Jonno,

I suggest you take another look at that post. As Colin rightly indirectly points out BF had the choice to either burn higher priced marine diesel and avoid the cost of retrospectively fitting scrubbers, or fit them (previously untested), and make a considerable fuel saving and at the same time trumpet their green credentials.

As far as I’m aware apart from Bretagne and Nex (MV Pelican?) the whole fleet burn HFO, and I know from the horses mouth Oscar Wilde does the same until she reaches 5 degrees longitude when heading east, then they swap tanks and switch on the MDO tap. How anyone monitors that is a different matter though....o.O

Out of interest we had a week on Queen Victoria in July 2016; I bumped into the chief engineer in the lift who told me they had scrubbers fitted at the engine exhaust (and therefore burned MDO) below decks,  to avoid those monstrous carbuncles more commonly known as funnels.

Chris

 

 

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1 hour ago, colin said:

So .... if all ships are on diesel, why spend millions on scrubbers. Facts please!

Scan0004.pdf.

I'm happy to scan all of the bureau veritas details for all of the BF vessels. I'll do all the RINA certificated ships too.

Scrubbers were a knee jerk waste of money especially as wash water would never give the overall reduction in NOx., SOx and C02 needed on a passenger ferry particularly as there was only ever going to be a five year window. Scrubbers were designed for RoRo vessels with less engines and higher deadweights. 

HFO has also become expensive as many oil companies are no longer supplying it, prior to the complete shut down in 2019/2020, they are already preferring to refine their crude into ULSD plus other fuels and polymers.

BDS had hers removed prior to being chartered from DFDS plus no other ferries serving the UK has them apart from BF's six. All WBY is getting in Flensburg is DPF's.

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Bearing in mind I know diddly squat, but that document just says 'Diesel' - surely that is a generic term for 'Diesel Oil'  which could be a variety of grades? Or is the term Heavy Oil still used exclusively for the black stuff? Presumably from the crudest to the more refined that is now burnt on ships without scrubbers...  Is it normally a case that if they still use heavy oil, this is reserved for the main engines whereas the gen sets tend to use lighter fuel?  

Edited by 5_ShortBlasts

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28 minutes ago, 5_ShortBlasts said:

Bearing in mind I know diddly squat, but that document just says 'Diesel' - surely that is a generic term for 'Diesel Oil'  which could be a variety of grades? Or is the term Heavy Oil still used exclusively for the black stuff? Presumably from the crudest to the more refined that is now burnt on ships without scrubbers...  Is it normally a case that if they still use heavy oil, this is reserved for the main engines whereas the gen sets tend to use lighter fuel?  

If a vessel burns HFO, the propelling type will state heavy fuel oil rather than the abbreviated HFO. It's the same for MGO, marine gas oil.

The onboard gen sets are switchable and can be configured for bi-fuel use the main engines can only be either or, they are not switchable. Viscosity, burn temp, flow rates etc aren't compatible you then have to consider the space and weight required to carry two fuels in the volumes required for main engine use.

Diesel is more expensive than HFO and MGO but the reduced maintenance costs more than recoup the extra outlay. The controlled environment of a dockyard  is also needed to clean HFO & MGO tanks. Diesel tanks and the DPFs can be cleaned regularly using additives at any time.

The only passenger vessels I know of which still burn HFO in their main engines at the moment are the two Color Line giants, they've just been fined €600,000 for discharging untreated wash water into the Great Belt.

 

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13 hours ago, jonno said:

BDS had hers removed prior to being chartered from DFDS plus no other ferries serving the UK has them apart from BF's six. All WBY is getting in Flensburg is DPF's.

What of the Stena ships at Hook of Holland, many of DFDS's North Sea vessels and P&O's Bore Song?

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1 hour ago, jonno said:

If a vessel burns HFO, the propelling type will state heavy fuel oil rather than the abbreviated HFO. It's the same for MGO, marine gas oil.

The onboard gen sets are switchable and can be configured for bi-fuel use the main engines can only be either or, they are not switchable. Viscosity, burn temp, flow rates etc aren't compatible you then have to consider the space and weight required to carry two fuels in the volumes required for main engine use.

Diesel is more expensive than HFO and MGO but the reduced maintenance costs more than recoup the extra outlay. The controlled environment of a dockyard  is also needed to clean HFO & MGO tanks. Diesel tanks and the DPFs can be cleaned regularly using additives at any time.

The only passenger vessels I know of which still burn HFO in their main engines at the moment are the two Color Line giants, they've just been fined €600,000 for discharging untreated wash water into the Great Belt.

 

Isn't the term Diesel referring to the type of engine combustion rather than the type of fuel? Ie. Diesel vs spark ignition engine. As far as I know, even when using recycled frying oil it would still be a diesel. 

 

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Isn't the term Diesel referring to the type of engine combustion rather than the type of fuel? Ie. Diesel vs spark ignition engine. As far as I know, even when using recycled frying oil it would still be a diesel. 

Quite right, it references the compression ingition engine first designed by Rudolf Diesel. The term is now used interchangeably between the type of engine and it's fuel although when people say 'diesel' it is really short for diesel fuel.

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HFO, the stuff which was the residue formed from refining, isn't available at EU ports or anchorages due to the EU sulphur directive 2005/33/EC.

Marine Gas Oil is a less viscous heavy fuel oil. it's the first rung on the refining ladder and requires scrubbers.

The freight ships which Timmy mentions, the DFDS ships from Immingham P&O's Bore Song and her sister Bore Sea and the Killingholme Stena's run on it. Passenger ships without scrubbers in the MARPOL ECA area can't. 

Having checked, Stena Hollandica had scrubbers fitted in early 2017 and Britannica had them installed late 2016 at Damen's facility in Rotterdam. They received type approval in August last year. These are the only other passenger ferries in UK waters I can find which have them.

According to Lloyds their propellant type is classified as marine gas oil.

It is not and never has been classed as a diesel oil as it's not produced in the same temperature chain.

Ultra Low Sulphur Marine Diesel Oil. Is as its name suggests, diesel oil, refined in the same temperature chain as industrial diesels and the fuel used in your car, van or HGV. It does not require a scrubber even though it's emission level is higher than the domestically used product as industrial particulate filters are far more aggressive than the ones bolted under a vehicle.

It is not and never has been classed as a heavy fuel oil.

A ships fuel classification can't be generically described as suggested above as the compliance issues regarding bunkering, storage, safety and use are significantly different.

 

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All interesting stuff, so, is it therefore fact that the Pont is running on diesel despite the outlay of scrubbers - if so this does seem an expensive and pointless project?!  Or have I missed something?

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2 hours ago, 5_ShortBlasts said:

All interesting stuff, so, is it therefore fact that the Pont is running on diesel despite the outlay of scrubbers - if so this does seem an expensive and pointless project?!  Or have I missed something?

I think if the world oil price had remained as high as it was scrubbers and MGO was the way to go. Nobody knew that the price would plummet just as the MARPOL ruling came into effect. All categories of diesel oil are also cheaper outside of the UK, mainland European countries levy higher taxes on petrol.

BF had committed themselves, they were the only ones who did, who knows what the financial implications would have been if they'd suddenly cancelled the yard time and the bespoke fabrication for six vessels?

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It's a shame though, because aesthetically only Barfleur and Armorique haven't suffered in their appearance. But hey ho. Didn't BF get EU funding for the work too? 

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While I bow to your technical knowledge Jonno I am still thoroughly confused by this thread. This is an extract from the BF blog about Cap Finisterre and scrubbers.

Chris :S

 

If you've been following our blog then you'll already know that we've been carrying out an extensive programme of modifications to three of our ships this winter and spring...

This work involves the installation of scrubbers - essentially gas filters - to Normandie, Cap Finistère, and Barfleur, allowing them to burn cost-effective heavy fuel oil, whilst still complying with new, stringent regulations applying to ships' emissions.

cap-finisteres-funnel.jpgCap Finistère's funnelinline_enlarge_en.gifCap Finistère recently returned to operation following her refit, and whether you're standing on the shore, or travelling on board, you'll notice a number of modifications and improvements. And many of them you may not notice at all.

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On 3/29/2018 at 18:10, Richie said:

Hi, yes I realise that, as will the majority of those on this forum. Joe Public however probably won't. Perhaps I should write "smoke" instead?

What I will say is the appeared to be significantly more water vapour emitted than Armorique. 

Yes, if you stand near Armorique's funnel on the upper deck it is s if there is a light rain when its actually the vapour from the scrubbers. I havent noticed it on the Pont-Aven.

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4 minutes ago, Isaac Mitchell said:

Yes, if you stand near Armorique's funnel on the upper deck it is s if there is a light rain when its actually the vapour from the scrubbers. I havent noticed it on the Pont-Aven.

Pont has it too , I think it depends on which way the wind blows.

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7 hours ago, Tumnus2010 said:

It's a shame though, because aesthetically only Barfleur and Armorique haven't suffered in their appearance. But hey ho. Didn't BF get EU funding for the work too? 

It’s not just about aesthetics,Pont ,MSM have lost outside deck space and Armorique has lost club cabins.

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