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New Dover Strait Tonnage for P&O.

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1 hour ago, Gareth said:

To be honest, and certainly on the P&O/TT side if not the Sealink/SNCF/DFDS side, the Dover-Calais ships stopped looking like ships (in any conventional sense) from the Blue Riband trio onwards.  This is just an evolution of the theme!

Yes, the (original) Spirits were very aggressively non-traditional, in fact Ayers had a disdain for traditional maritime aesthetics and those three were almost Brutalist. But without harping on too much, being untraditional didn't mean they weren't very carefully sculpted to give the dynamic appearance that made them so eye-catching at sea - the huge masts, the in and out shape of the superstructure, the angles of the masts and funnel and deckhouses all in harmony. In their case function led to form but the form wasn't just left as an undesigned mess.

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17 minutes ago, hhvferry said:

Yes, the (original) Spirits were very aggressively non-traditional, in fact Ayers had a disdain for traditional maritime aesthetics and those three were almost Brutalist. But without harping on too much, being untraditional didn't mean they weren't very carefully sculpted to give the dynamic appearance that made them so eye-catching at sea - the huge masts, the in and out shape of the superstructure, the angles of the masts and funnel and deckhouses all in harmony. In their case function led to form but the form wasn't just left as an undesigned mess.

hhv, do you think that when you refer to such designs (as is often the case) or past vessels from the various fleets it would be possible to either include a photo so we can see directly the ship in context or link to one of the pages in your archives. It's sometimes quite difficult to follow which ships you are referring to as they often change names and companies and that makes tracking down photos on Google Images more complicated, especially if the ship has undergone various structural changes over the years. Cheers! Ed. 

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3 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

hhv, do you think that when you refer to such designs (as is often the case) or past vessels from the various fleets it would be possible to either include a photo so we can see directly the ship in context or link to one of the pages in your archives. It's sometimes quite difficult to follow which ships you are referring to as they often change names and companies and that makes tracking down photos on Google Images more complicated, especially if the ship has undergone various structural changes over the years. Cheers! Ed. 

The trio in this case were Townsend's 1979-1980 Spirit class, designed by James Ayers. In design terms, they were a form of aggressive perfection. How they were operated, that's a different matter.

image.png.71855f956d062e12525d3e32a373870f.png

 

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2 minutes ago, Nick Hyde said:

Yes hhv ferry... I liked the Spirit design a lot. Also quite like work done on Fantasia conversion.

Again styled by a proper architect, albeit not one with a maritime background so he (Warren Platner) did a few things which were certainly challenging to convention when designing Fantasia and Fiesta.

In fact those two went to extremes in the amount of time and money spent on their external profile. Platner had a a pair of large wooden models created and he experimented with different livery applications and with adding and taking off bulkheads and bits of superstructure to see what it would look like (pic from the Roy Thornton collection).

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Are we off topic yet? 😀

On topic, I'll be interested to see who gets the contract to design the insides of these new P&O ships. The last pair were by SMC Design and they did a tidy, if slightly conservative, job which gained them entry into the ferry market. The most recent work I've seen from them was the refurbs of the two ex-Seafrance ships, and I'm not a fan of what they've done. It would be good if P&O went for something slightly more radical to go with what look like relatively radical ships.

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On 28/09/2019 at 06:37, hhvferry said:

True but not true. In an age when your ship can appear in the background to a million social media posts it pays to make it not look like it's an ugly POS. 

Personally, I think that comment is misplaced. It's a brave, modern design.

In terms of their market - well the freight customers don't care what it looks like - they are looking for quick turnarounds and an efficient design that keeps prices down.  The paying public will be influenced primarily by price and secondarily by on board experience.  I think how they look is less important but, by going for something that is very different, they at least will offer people the chance to feel they are trying something new, now that the tunnel is old-hat.  Most people look at a ferry and just see a ferry, it has to be very different to have much impact at all.

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2 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

Personally, I think that comment is misplaced. It's a brave, modern design.

In terms of their market - well the freight customers don't care what it looks like - they are looking for quick turnarounds and an efficient design that keeps prices down.  The paying public will be influenced primarily by price and secondarily by on board experience.  I think how they look is less important but, by going for something that is very different, they at least will offer people the chance to feel they are trying something new, now that the tunnel is old-hat.  Most people look at a ferry and just see a ferry, it has to be very different to have much impact at all.

Oh, I understand now. I thought POS was a reference to P&O Stena from way back. It's all much clearer now. cheers. Ed. 

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41 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

Personally, I think that comment is misplaced. It's a brave, modern design.

I don't have a problem with the concept, it looks interesting and quite brave.

But most decent operators make sure the outside isn't discordant. I guess it's the same as in any other aspect of life, why make a building or a car look good when you could just throw it together and it ends up looking like what it looks like. Industrial design is taking those parts and making it look good or, at least, better. Some naval architects are better at delivering a decent starting point than others but this rendering doesn't look like it's had any of that work done on it (yet).

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23 minutes ago, hhvferry said:

I don't have a problem with the concept, it looks interesting and quite brave.

But most decent operators make sure the outside isn't discordant. I guess it's the same as in any other aspect of life, why make a building or a car look good when you could just throw it together and it ends up looking like what it looks like. Industrial design is taking those parts and making it look good or, at least, better. Some naval architects are better at delivering a decent starting point than others but this rendering doesn't look like it's had any of that work done on it (yet).

I guess it shows that we all have different tastes. I find it quite cohesive. Whether I still think that once real world bits and bobs have been added in is anyone's guess!

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On 28/09/2019 at 15:00, hhvferry said:

How they were operated, that's a different matter.

That’s a whole other conversation, but it would be unfair, in my view, to allow the wayward final years of TT management to detract from the whole of the Blue Riband era.  I agree, whilst demonstrably unconventional, the ships (like all of Ayers’ creations) were very cleverly designed.  It was the early days of clam bow doors, and highly unfortunate that the implications of not having a visor (so visible when open) did not occur to the designers of the bridge electronics.

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8 hours ago, Nick Hyde said:

Cet article de presse semble indiquer que les nouveaux traversiers Dover ressembleront à la fierté de Rotteedam. Souhaité qu'ils ont fait !!!

Screenshot_2019-09-30-10-05-58.png

It's the design of the futur P&O for Dover Calais

71547082_2429564430494859_4066739017427714048_o.jpg

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2 hours ago, jujudu62100 said:

It's the design of the futur P&O for Dover Calais

71547082_2429564430494859_4066739017427714048_o.jpg

Presumably centralised azi-pods, rather than a prop at each end?

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Or engines in the middle and two pods at each end? I would think you need the propulsion towards the ends of the vessel to give sufficient steering leverage. Enen if the ship is double ended it still needs to be able to manoeuvre at close quarters within Dover harbour.

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8 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

Or engines in the middle and two pods at each end? I would think you need the propulsion towards the ends of the vessel to give sufficient steering leverage. Enen if the ship is double ended it still needs to be able to manoeuvre at close quarters within Dover harbour.

In the original pictures which are in a previous post there are pods and engines at either end.

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19 hours ago, hhvferry said:

I don't have a problem with the concept, it looks interesting and quite brave.

But most decent operators make sure the outside isn't discordant. I guess it's the same as in any other aspect of life, why make a building or a car look good when you could just throw it together and it ends up looking like what it looks like. Industrial design is taking those parts and making it look good or, at least, better. Some naval architects are better at delivering a decent starting point than others but this rendering doesn't look like it's had any of that work done on it (yet).

Pop over to Canada or Washington State (US) and ask how the paying public feel about double ended ferries. I'm sure none of them care how it looks and they probably will not even know it is double ended.

Azimuth Thrusters (Azipods), like most things, have advanced a lot since the original concept and are becoming much more popular on varying types of vessels. The are even fitted to some of the largest LNG carriers, which are over 300 metres long and ice class.

I am surprised it has taken this long for the Dov/Cal route to move towards double ended ferries as there are many proven routes using them. I suppose it was just a case of being bold enough to build 'the worlds largest' double ended ferry.

Edited by Danim24
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Quick question regarding the existing double-ended designs that are around, such as the one Nick just referenced.  Are they designed to be able to cope with demands that would be associated with Dover Straits conditions (such as exposed weather, rough seas, strong tides and confined manoeuvring space)?  Or are they more designed for sheltered non-tidal spheres of operation?  Will the Dover Straits require a different approach to the existing precedents or is what is already tried and tested likely to suffice? 

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I don't know for sure but I would think it's mainly a convenience factor for short routes where having to turn around after undocking would significantly add to the crossing time on short routes such as some of the BC ferries. Wightlink's St Clare is double ended but it would seem that the additional cost of duplicating controls etc. was not thought worthwhile when VoW was ordered and indeed the time taken to turn at either the Portsmouth or Fishbourne ends is just a few minutes only. There must be some information/research on this somewhere.

Maybe the idea on the Dover Straits is to speed the embarkation/disembarkation process. In a sense they are scaled up chain ferries without the chains.

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1 hour ago, Gareth said:

Quick question regarding the existing double-ended designs that are around, such as the one Nick just referenced.  Are they designed to be able to cope with demands that would be associated with Dover Straits conditions (such as exposed weather, rough seas, strong tides and confined manoeuvring space)?  Or are they more designed for sheltered non-tidal spheres of operation?  Will the Dover Straits require a different approach to the existing precedents or is what is already tried and tested likely to suffice? 

Although I agree the Strait of Georgia has less fetch, it is some 45km wide on the crossing from Horseshoe Bay - Nanaimo and has strong tidal currents in places. The Strait of Dover is around 33km wide. And let's be honest, the Dover fleet tend to have a unique bow design anyhow, they are not exactly Ocean Liners. Incidentally, BC's Coastal Class vessels made the passage from Germany to the West Coast of Canada across the Atlantic, through the Panama canal and up the Pacific Ocean, which probably gave their sea keeping capabilities a good test. I am looking forward to something a little different on the channel and, hopefully, without the vibrations most of the P&O Dover fleet suffer 😉 

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Azipods are very common on cruise ships, not universally used (for example almost all the P&O Cruises and Princess fleets don't have them, except for P&O's Arcadia as it is a different design class and the new Iona).

According to the press release there are 2 at each end making a total of 4x azipods. No bow thrusters and no stern thrusters, they're not needed with azipods plus these new ships won't have to do 180-degree turns on the leg from Calais to Dover. Azipods are much more expensive than a normal propeller/shaft/rudder set up and the internal configuration of the engine spaces is totally different.

If you've seen the Red Funnel Raptors with (lorry) engines directly connected to the Voith Schneider units then that configuration is not what these new ferries will have.

You have to think of the engines as generators, cruise ships run their engine configurations like power plants generating electricity rather than any sort of drive propulsion. Instead the electricity is what powers the azipods as well as the rest of the ship. By using batteries, they can run the engines at constant speed with the batteries taking any excess load the azipods need for example when they turn or push the ship sideways encountering more resistance. Engines when performing as generators no longer need to be lined up to provide drive to the propellers so can be placed differently within the ship to balance centres of gravity and hydrodynamics.

There seems to be a lot of clever stuff on there, yes Honfleur does sound like it will be eclipsed already when it eventually comes into service, but that's a good thing as technology moves forward and emissions come down. The only thing they don't mention is the air cushion that ships like Royal Caribbean's Quantum-class and Celebrity Cruises' Edge-class glide on to reduce resistance, but I think the hull shape has something to do with it.

As for the look, my initial thought was it looked like Pride of Hampshire post-Jumboisation. Otherwise known as a ghastly mess. But on reflection it probably ticks all the boxes for lots of light and seeing a "connection to the sea", and probably all that deck space the press release talks about is at each end - I would hazard a guess that the top area is in front of the crew cabins so they won't have passengers walking around there like on their other ships. In terms of photos, people will want the view from one end of the White Cliffs and from the other the Calais beaches so my guess is going to be the lower of the two outside decks are going to be public, the deck above I'm going to guess one end is Club Lounge and the other is Freight Lounge each with their own private decks as the Spirits have now.

Thinking about other ships at Dover, which actually looks good from the back? The Pride of Burgundy certainly is about the worst, but none of them are what could be described as photogenic. The ends of the new P&O ships would be an improvement.

There's no foot passenger gangway designed in for Dover in that mock-up, maybe it'll be buses, maybe another alternative...

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7 hours ago, Seashore said:

There's no foot passenger gangway designed in for Dover in that mock-up, maybe it'll be buses, maybe another alternative...

That's a good point. It's been a long time since I went through Dover as a foot passenger. Do people still walk from the terminal to the gangway? The addition of buses might be difficult and hinder the loading of vehicles.  

As for the design, I actually quite like it despite the mix of angles. I also see the 'Pride' legacy in the bow/stern door design but I think there are elements of Condor Liberation and perhaps SNCV Rhapsody in there too, all tied together by someone who appears to have just graduated from the StarFleet school of design. Ed

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You get bussed from the terminal to the gangway. Assuming that they keep footies, which is doubtful I fear DFDS don't and P&O at present is only for during the day, then must just be bussed onboard.

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