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Sister ships, definition..

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This has come up slightly in the new look thread, and I wondered what people's definitions were of a sister ship? I can think of 3 good examples of identical sisters - P & O 's Spirits, Pride of Hull/Rotterdam, and the Harwich Stena boats. However there are plenty of other examples that could be defined as sisters or near sisters that are very, very similar, but not identical. e.g. DFDS King/Princess Seaways (although as built they would be sisters), P & O Pride of York/Bruges, various of the Visentini as seen in the differences between Connemara and Etretat..

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Seven Sisters and Cote d'Albatre are sister ships although there are minor differences to the interior layouts like where the kids zone is located etc. Otherwise, as far as I've seen, they are identical. Ed. 

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Gosh that’s opening a can of worms - Gareth, where are you !

The 60’s Townsend fleet, to which were added the Thoreson family, a few zillion Superfasts, Connaught and Leinster from B & I days, lots of fastcraft, Stena Normandy and Stena Europe, Purbeck and Coutances, the DFDS fleet at Dunkerque to name a few...(I need food!)

Chris

Champs Élysées and Côté d’Azur, Dragon and Leopard, etc etc ad infinitum  🤪

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2 minutes ago, Fine Whine said:

Champs Élysées and Côté d’Azur

Ahh, but there are differences between them two, different upper bow door, different funnel width - A can of worms indeed! Where does the line lie 

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Do Cotentin and Armorique qualify?  Completely different ships from the same base design.

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13 minutes ago, Fine Whine said:

Gosh that’s opening a can of worms - Gareth, where are you !

The 60’s Townsend fleet, to which were added the Thoreson family, a few zillion Superfasts, Connaught and Leinster from B & I days, lots of fastcraft, Stena Normandy and Stena Europe, Purbeck and Coutances, the DFDS fleet at Dunkerque to name a few...(I need food!)

Chris

Champs Élysées and Côté d’Azur, Dragon and Leopard, etc etc ad infinitum  🤪

Here! 😀

Historically:

TT:  (Viking I, Viking II); (FE4, FE5); (FE6, FE7); the 4 Super Vikings; the 3 Blue Riband ships; the 2 Chunnel Beaters

P&O: (Dragon, Leopard); (Tiger, Panther); (Ulster Prince, Ulster Queen); (Norwave, Norwind); (Norland, Norstar)

Sealink: (Hengist, Horsa); (Villandry, Valencay); (St Anselm, St Christopher); (Princesse Astrid, Roi Bauduoin); (Prins Phillippe, Prince Laurent); (PME, PMC).

Cote D’Azur and Champs Elysees were not identical sisters - different funnel designs.  Viking III was not quite same as the first 2 Vikings.  Prins Albert not quite same as PME, PMC.

How similar does similar have to be to count as sisters?

BF:  I don’t think BF has really had any sisters.  Coutances and Purbeck don’t really count, and Connemara is not a sister of Etretat.

How long is a piece of string?  As you say, Chris, can of worms!

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Surely isn’t a sister a member of the same family?

So all the BF ships are part of the same fleet so they’re sisters. And ships of very similar design, for example the now King/Princess Seaways and ex-Pride of Portsmouth/Le Havre were very similar, but what was Koningen Beatrix was part of that lineage despite never being owned by TT Line group.

Twins is a different thing, although it could be argued that all have their own personalities and different way of presentation, just like human twin sisters, the Spirit of Britain and France are very different inside as built and the Olaus had different decor too.

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But identical or non-identical twins? Condor Vitesse and Express were to the best of my knowledge identical both inside and out. Whereas Seven Sisters and Cote d'Albatre are identical outside but with minor structural differences inside, but those may have been made during refits rather than at the time of construction. Ed. 

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I'd consider 'sister' ships to be those that are structurally the same and have been effectively built from the same design or with minimal changes. Interior fit out etc is a different kettle of fish. It's like houses on an estate being built to the same plan and then the decor being applied by the owners.

 

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I would have guessed that some of the Union Castle Line would be sisters but it looks like they were not. I sailed on two of them but was far to young to remember if they were the same.

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19 hours ago, Seashore said:

Surely isn’t a sister a member of the same family?

So all the BF ships are part of the same fleet so they’re sisters. And ships of very similar design, for example the now King/Princess Seaways and ex-Pride of Portsmouth/Le Havre were very similar, but what was Koningen Beatrix was part of that lineage despite never being owned by TT Line group.

Twins is a different thing, although it could be argued that all have their own personalities and different way of presentation, just like human twin sisters, the Spirit of Britain and France are very different inside as built and the Olaus had different decor too.

The Olau Twins are sisters to the Newcastle ships even though 2 have visors and 2 have clam shells, I suppose Koningen Beatrix is a cousin having been built by a different yard but to the same design.

Are we just talking U.K or further afield as the list is long and distinguished.

We have the Color Line and Stena Line ships serving Kiel, both LNG Fjord Line ships sailing from Hirtsals, GNV's La Suprema and La Superba and I think Excelsior & Excellent are sisters too. Minoan have a couple of pairs of sisters. Mariella, Pincess Anastasia... The Croatian built ferries of the early '90's

The more you look the more of them you find.

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10 hours ago, Jim said:

I'd consider 'sister' ships to be those that are structurally the same and have been effectively built from the same design or with minimal changes. Interior fit out etc is a different kettle of fish. It's like houses on an estate being built to the same plan and then the decor being applied by the owners.

 

That would be my take as well...

Of course, the you get the Dover European Freighters - are they sisters? Seaway/Highway/Pathway were, but the Burgundy? she has the same hullform, but modified superstructure. Then with the conversion of Pathway/Highway... Is Seaway still a sistership...

That is even more complicated then the Armorique/Cotentin!

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Again though as some suggest, where do you draw the line? The Visentini's are a Class as are the Peter Pans and Superfasts so too the anticipated initial tranche of E-Flexer. None are identical although the DNA is the same.

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7 hours ago, jonno said:

Again though as some suggest, where do you draw the line? The Visentini's are a Class as are the Peter Pans and Superfasts so too the anticipated initial tranche of E-Flexer. None are identical although the DNA is the same.

Are the two Belfast superfasts not the same?

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4 hours ago, neilcvx said:

Are the two Belfast superfasts not the same?

As each other yes and Superfast X but are different to the Cap' and Cruise Olbia which have more superstructure at the stern, the area which houses CF's Planets Bar. Superfast XI & XII are different too.

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13 hours ago, The Ferry Man said:

That would be my take as well...

Of course, the you get the Dover European Freighters - are they sisters? Seaway/Highway/Pathway were, but the Burgundy? she has the same hullform, but modified superstructure. Then with the conversion of Pathway/Highway... Is Seaway still a sistership...

That is even more complicated then the Armorique/Cotentin!

They were originally intended to be built as sisters.  Burgundy (originally due to be called European Causeway) was redesigned on the slipway and was never delivered as a sister to the others.  Parhway and Highway were originally sisters of Seaway until their rebuild.  Today only Kent and Canterbury are sisters out of these original four.

Armorique and Cotentin were never sisters, just based on same hull form.  I’ve occasionally wondered whether Cotentin could be rebuilt as a sister of Armorique, but have been assured by others on here that there are engineering reasons why this will never be possible.

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19 hours ago, jonno said:

 

The Olau Twins are sisters to the Newcastle ships even though 2 have visors and 2 have clam shells, I suppose Koningen Beatrix is a cousin having been built by a different yard but to the same design.

Are we just talking U.K or further afield as the list is long and distinguished.

We have the Color Line and Stena Line ships serving Kiel, both LNG Fjord Line ships sailing from Hirtsals, GNV's La Suprema and La Superba and I think Excelsior & Excellent are sisters too. Minoan have a couple of pairs of sisters. Mariella, Pincess Anastasia... The Croatian built ferries of the early '90's

The more you look the more of them you find.

Plus Tallink's Romantika/Victoria 1 and Baltic Queen/Baltic Princess. Interestingly, I don't think any of the sisters run the same routes, but are all paired up with other ships.

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On 04/12/2018 at 11:38, BobCrox said:

I would have guessed that some of the Union Castle Line would be sisters but it looks like they were not. I sailed on two of them but was far to young to remember if they were the same.

Some were, the Athlone and Stirling were sisterships, pre war then postwar the Pretoria and Edinburgh castles built by Harland and Woolf entering service in the late 1940`s...All the others were individual..A lot of Clan line were sisterships though.

 

 

 

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On 04/12/2018 at 11:38, BobCrox said:

I would have guessed that some of the Union Castle Line would be sisters but it looks like they were not. I sailed on two of them but was far to young to remember if they were the same.

I used to know a bloke who served on Edinburgh Castle. I say used to, I just don’t mix with him now.  Won’t give his full name but he was called David and he got sacked for whacking someone over a head with a frying pan (or so I have been told) because someone insulted his wife.  No idea what the insult was though, but David even to this day has a bit of a temper on him, and although never violent to me, he stood up sharply and gave me a tongue lashing in the middle of MacDonalds for saying I am an atheist - he is a deeply religious Cathoilc.  Remember everyone turning to look.  So, smacking someone over the head with a frying pan on Edinburgh Castle, yep, I can believe it possibly true..🙂

Edited by Khaines
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I'd say Stena Fantasia & Seafrance Cezanne were definitely sister ships.

They had different interiors reflecting their sister companies Sealink/Stena Line & SNAT but structurally i believe they were identical. I think they were actually Triplets but the 3rd one sank soon after launching?

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10 minutes ago, chid679 said:

I'd say Stena Fantasia & Seafrance Cezanne were definitely sister ships.

They had different interiors reflecting their sister companies Sealink/Stena Line & SNAT but structurally i believe they were identical. I think they were actually Triplets but the 3rd one sank soon after launching?

You`re right they were..They were previously Bulgarian owned and converted to the Ro Ro`s we knew, which did great service on the Dover Calais route

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At the time of their conversion they became Fantasia and Fiesta.  (I have a vague recollection they even swapped names during this process for some reason).  Fiesta subsequently became Cezanne for SeaFrance, but that didn’t stop them being sisters.

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22 minutes ago, chid679 said:

I'd say Stena Fantasia & Seafrance Cezanne were definitely sister ships.

They had different interiors reflecting their sister companies Sealink/Stena Line & SNAT but structurally i believe they were identical. I think they were actually Triplets but the 3rd one sank soon after launching? 

They weren't totally structurally the same as rebuilt, they had a few differences (e.g. some variances in the external staircases adjacent to the aft bar) but they were certainly close enough to count as twins. Ships like Hengist/Horsa compared to Senlac were almost indistinguishable externally if you ignored liveries but had some substantial differences on board but are still twins in my book.

But once you start tweaking things that have visual significance does that matter more than them being divergent on board? e.g. the Prinsessan Desiree (current Aqua Solution) and Prinsessan Christina (Bohus) were barely different apart from the funnel/mast arrangement which is prominent but arguably trivial in some ways.

Where does one draw the line? It is, perhaps, impossible to answer :)

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