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TonyMWeaver

P&O To Reflag Entire Fleet to Cyprus

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The ultimate reason will be down to money. Nothing more, nothing less. National flag waving counts for nothing. That is why Cunard are now registered in Bermuda using the fig leaf of conducting on board weddings as an excuse.

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Take the re-flagging of the P&O Dover fleet as an example.  Being widely reported as “to be re-flagged post-Brexit”.  In actual fact the P&O move towards re-flagging its fleet to Cyprus began a couple of years ago, and the Dover fleet is just following an existing policy.  Lazy reporting.

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12 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

Conspiracy in the sense that people online reinforce each other's predjudices. Social; Media has a lot to answer for!

Lack of regulation of social media has a lot more to answer for, people have always been easily led even before social media, @Gareth point about P&O being reflagged seems to me to be more about P&O not pointing out that Brexit wasn’t the reason why would they?

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54 minutes ago, Gareth said:

Take the re-flagging of the P&O Dover fleet as an example.  Being widely reported as “to be re-flagged post-Brexit”.  In actual fact the P&O move towards re-flagging its fleet to Cyprus began a couple of years ago, and the Dover fleet is just following an existing policy.  Lazy reporting.

A quote from P&O in The Guardian today.

P&O, which began life as the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation company in 1837, said all six of its cross-Channel ferries will be re-registered from the UK registry in Cyprus to keep EU tax benefits. The ferries include, the Spirit of Britain, the Pride of Kent and the Pride of Canterbury.

“In advance of Britain leaving the European Union on March 29 2019, we undertook a review of the flag status of our ships on the English Channel,” a P&O spokesman said.

“For operational and accounting reasons, we have concluded that the best course of action is to reflag all ships to be under the Cyprus flag.”

 

Clearly Brexit and it's financial implications were the motivation for the change.

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19 minutes ago, G4rth said:

A quote from P&O in The Guardian today.

P&O, which began life as the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation company in 1837, said all six of its cross-Channel ferries will be re-registered from the UK registry in Cyprus to keep EU tax benefits. The ferries include, the Spirit of Britain, the Pride of Kent and the Pride of Canterbury.

“In advance of Britain leaving the European Union on March 29 2019, we undertook a review of the flag status of our ships on the English Channel,” a P&O spokesman said.

“For operational and accounting reasons, we have concluded that the best course of action is to reflag all ships to be under the Cyprus flag.”

 

Clearly Brexit and it's financial implications were the motivation for the change.

If just Brexit why not re-flag to French?  Or would that not give enough savings compared with using a flag of convenience?

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Lots of nonsense being talked here I'm afraid.  If you want to read up on the re-flagging of the Dover fleet, it's been comprehensively discussed in the DFE forum for months.  The reasons given by P&O when they first announced the policy last year were all to do with favourable taxation.  Brexit was nothing to do with it.  Sure, the change happens to be coinciding with Brexit (which makes for good spin), and the event of Brexit has been cited as the trigger for the review, but it was not the reason for the conclusions of that review.  The reasons for the change are, as they always were, "accounting and operational".  The P&O re-flagging policy actually started, for these same reasons, with the then-UK-registered Hull fleet, as far back as 2011.

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3 minutes ago, Solo said:

If just Brexit why not re-flag to French?  Or would that not give enough savings compared with using a flag of convenience?

It, I thought, quite clearly stated the company position. I'm not sure why you would think that a company that goes to the trouble to re-flag it's fleet would opt for French registration if it was financially advantageous to use Cyprus over France.

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14 minutes ago, Gareth said:

Lots of nonsense being talked here I'm afraid.  If you want to read up on the re-flagging of the Dover fleet, it's been comprehensively discussed in the DFE forum for months.  The reasons given by P&O when they first announced the policy last year were all to do with favourable taxation.  Brexit was nothing to do with it.  Sure, the change happens to be coinciding with it (which makes for good spin) but it was not the reason.

I refer you to the first sentence of the quote from the Guardian in particular the last 12 words. It could not be clearer the move is due to more favorable financial considerations that result from registration inside the EU.

P&O, which began life as the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation company in 1837, said all six of its cross-Channel ferries will be re-registered from the UK registry in Cyprus to keep EU tax benefits."

Edited by G4rth

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6 hours ago, Solo said:

If just Brexit why not re-flag to French?  Or would that not give enough savings compared with using a flag of convenience?

I'm not 100% certain but it would likely then require a majority French crew and be subject to French Union oversight. Any further questions? 😀 Ed

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I believe P&O's rivals at Dover, DFDS, have 3 French-flagged ships (those on the Calais route) and 3 UK-flagged ships (the Dunkerque sisters). I can't see the French registered ones changing, but I wonder if they will follow suit with the British ships?

DFDS I would say are, if anything, more commercially astute than P&O but I don't see too many of their ships, whether passenger or freight, flying flags of convenience.

Edited by Ryan_H
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10 hours ago, G4rth said:

I refer you to the first sentence of the quote from the Guardian in particular the last 12 words. It could not be clearer the move is due to more favorable financial considerations that result from registration inside the EU.

P&O, which began life as the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation company in 1837, said all six of its cross-Channel ferries will be re-registered from the UK registry in Cyprus to keep EU tax benefits."

That's all very well G4rth but Cyprus doesn't have an exclusive rate. There are many EU members far closer with very strong maritime connections who offer the same favourable financial considerations such as P&O's none U.K. destinations, France, Belgium & Holland.

Dublin is an EU maritime city offering the same financial considerations so why isn't the Irish Ferries fleet registered there?

 

 

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27 minutes ago, jonno said:

 

That's all very well G4rth but Cyprus doesn't have an exclusive rate. There are many EU members far closer with very strong maritime connections who offer the same favourable financial considerations such as P&O's none U.K. destinations, France, Belgium & Holland.

Dublin is an EU maritime city offering the same financial considerations so why isn't the Irish Ferries fleet registered there?

 

 

That may well be the case jonno but at the end of the day those tasked with making the decision and in possession of all the relevant facts as to the needs and financial advantages for their company have chosen Cyprus. I'm at a loss to understand why anyone should think that they know better than those in possession of the facts. However this is 2019 I suppose so it's probably par for the course.😃

Edited by G4rth
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5 hours ago, G4rth said:

That may well be the case jonno but at the end of the day those tasked with making the decision and in possession of all the relevant facts as to the needs and financial advantages for their company have chosen Cyprus. I'm at a loss to understand why anyone should think that they know better than those in possession of the facts. However this is 2019 I suppose so it's probably par for the course.😃

I see, so fellow forum members need to initially quantify their reasoning and knowledge now prior to posting.

Tell me G4rth, what's your position, what knowledge of P&O ferries do you have which others don't allowing you to dismiss sarcastically those who have questioned both the media and ferry company statements?

You have none. However there are many forum members who know all too well that flags of convenience have more to do with working conditions, zero union intervention and lower wages. Cyprus, Bermuda, Nassau & now Malta are well known for it and it's why 95% of P&O's tonnage is already registered in these countries and has been for years.

Also being an informed, resounding and enthusiastic European Union advocate you are all too aware of the fact that every EU member state has total equality in terms of tax and customs convenience as the decision is made for them. This Brussels decision was made in order to stop any advantage being gained by any single member.

So... why Cyprus as it's not about post Brexit tax or customs?

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1 hour ago, jonno said:

I see, so fellow forum members need to initially quantify their reasoning and knowledge now prior to posting.

Tell me G4rth, what's your position, what knowledge of P&O ferries do you have which others don't allowing you to dismiss sarcastically those who have questioned both the media and ferry company statements?

You have none. However there are many forum members who know all too well that flags of convenience have more to do with working conditions, zero union intervention and lower wages. Cyprus, Bermuda, Nassau & now Malta are well known for it and it's why 95% of P&O's tonnage is already registered in these countries and has been for years.

Also being an informed, resounding and enthusiastic European Union advocate you are all too aware of the fact that every EU member state has total equality in terms of tax and customs convenience as the decision is made for them. This Brussels decision was made in order to stop any advantage being gained by any single member.

So... why Cyprus as it's not about post Brexit tax or customs?

What an odd response if you don't mind me saying so. I have never claimed that I know anything about P&O or indeed any other ferry company. My knowledge on them is close to zero. I'm sure that there are very many knowledgeable member of the forum who could write books on the subject just as I suspect there are many like myself who know very little. I don't know who falls into which group although reading posts here for 15 years if have my suspicions that some would put themselves in the former group where I might put them in the latter. It just seems strange to me that the reported statements of those running a company, whom one would hope know all the fact and figures on everything regarding the situation within the company, should be dismissed in favour of an "alternative opinion".

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I think we might have been talking at cross-purposes G4rth, and it is possible I owe you an apology.  I do agree that P&O indicated that their considerations of “accounting and operational” priorities were linked to a wish to keep the flag in an EU state.  And that was clear in the December press release.  To that end, I agree the decison is related to the UK leaving the EU.  It’s also different from the situation with the Hull ships, which were reflagged in the Bahamas, so the analogy with them is not quite direct.

It does, however, remain the case that the choice of Cyprus (as opposed to many other EU flags they could have chosen) is essentially a flag of convenience.  And, given what happened with the Hull ships, it is quite likely that this change would have happened anyway, Brexit or not.

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p.s. I have to confess, I hadn’t fully appreciated that Cyprus was actually in the EU.  Given that half of it is Turkish (which is a long way from being eligible for EU membership), and the other half is Greek (which probably, by and large, must wish it had never joined, and came within a whisker of being kicked out), I was quite surprised to find that Cyprus is EU territory.  Apologies for my ignorance. 😊

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29 minutes ago, Ian Walker said:

There is P&O , UK companies moving to abroad.  What is the government going to do about this? 

P&O has not been a UK company for 13 years now.  It was sold to Dubai owners in 2006.

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41 minutes ago, Ian Walker said:

There is P&O , UK companies moving to abroad.  What is the government going to do about this? 

Nothing, we are a open and free trading economy. I can't imagine any Conservative government engaging in any kind of protectionist measures.

 

Just look at where your electricity comes from, EDF run many of our existing power pants and the government is desperately courting the Chinese to build the next lot.

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16 minutes ago, Gareth said:

P&O has not been a UK company for 13 years now.  It was sold to Dubai owners in 2006.

They are also running a commercial operation and not a heritage monument so I really don't see a problem. I doubt most passengers would either notice or care where the vessel is registered. Ed. 

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12 hours ago, penguin said:

Nothing, we are a open and free trading economy. I can't imagine any Conservative government engaging in any kind of protectionist measures.

 

Just look at where your electricity comes from, EDF run many of our existing power pants and the government is desperately courting the Chinese to build the next lot.

Yes nothing .  In turn there will be a lot of Jobs gone here in the UK.  As it is this Universal Credit can't get their act together.  In turn those who are out of work here will be a huge burden on the state.  Because there will be no work in the UK. 

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12 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

They are also running a commercial operation and not a heritage monument so I really don't see a problem. I doubt most passengers would either notice or care where the vessel is registered. Ed. 

Yes I am aware P&O are own by Dubai.   I had loss interest in using them since the western routes closed some 9 years ago.

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