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cvabishop

Notre Dame Fire

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The wealth these people have is surreal, Pinault and Arnaud for example 

“Between them, they have significantly more money than several European states — such as Croatia, Serbia, Slovakia or Slovenia. If you had €3,000 (£2601) in your bank account right now and you donated a tenner to the restoration effort, you'd be giving proportionally the same amount as these two.”

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Apparently people are being asked to design a new spire and bring asked to submit designs that could be either a replica of the original or something more modern.  I am most definitely on the side of a replica, surely that is what people would prefer.  They would want to see what they are used to seeing not something different, cannot see the point of a modern design.  If they want to rebuild then surely the best thing is to be as accurate to the original as possible? 

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9 minutes ago, Khaines said:

Apparently people are being asked to design a new spire and bring asked to submit designs that could be either a replica of the original or something more modern.  I am most definitely on the side of a replica, surely that is what people would prefer.  They would want to see what they are used to seeing not something different, cannot see the point of a modern design.  If they want to rebuild then surely the best thing is to be as accurate to the original as possible? 

Isn't that the exact polar opposite of what you were suggesting yesterday? Ed. 

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1 hour ago, Cabin-boy said:

Isn't that the exact polar opposite of what you were suggesting yesterday? Ed. 

Yes, but there is a reason for it.  Since yesterday, it has become a lot clearer as to the extent of the damage and having seen pictures and footage myself I have come to the conclusion that a rebuild is possible.  It looked yesterday like a lost cause, now we have a clearer idea to the extent of the damage, I have a partial change of mind.  Yes, I still feel that they should just protect what is left of it and my comments yesterday still stand.  But if renovation IS going to be done, then I hope they try and replicate the original spire.  It is the idea of a modern design replacing it I found a bit wrong.

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1 hour ago, Khaines said:

Apparently people are being asked to design a new spire and bring asked to submit designs that could be either a replica of the original or something more modern.  I am most definitely on the side of a replica, surely that is what people would prefer.  They would want to see what they are used to seeing not something different, cannot see the point of a modern design.  If they want to rebuild then surely the best thing is to be as accurate to the original as possible? 

The original spire is not very old compared to the age of the rest of the building so why add a replica. I would have thought that a more modern design would not be out of place. Buildings evolve over the centuries why not this one?

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53 minutes ago, G4rth said:

Buildings evolve over the centuries why not this one?

Remember, this is France. They don't do change or reform. Ed. 

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1 hour ago, G4rth said:

I would have thought that a more modern design would not be out of place.

There’s a good example of such a design on top of Pont Aven! 😉

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24 minutes ago, G4rth said:

Wow!

Not sure about Paris, but I presume it’s the same, don't forget Sapeurs Pompiers are mostly volunteers, and not only do they put out fires but are also Ambulance men and women too. 

In Calvados for example 50 fire stations, 2200 firemen, 400 Full timers, the rest are volunteers.

see https://www.calvados.fr/accueil/le-departement/routes-environnement--territoire/securite-publique/sdis-14.html

Brave men and women one and all, giving back to the region/village/town/cities where they live.

I have a nephew, he is the Fourth generation of the French side of his Family to serve his Village as a Sapeur Pompier. Tres Fiere!

Come Christmas we always always buy the SDIS14 calendar, even if we are in the UK, great cause.

Saw in the local French press concerns about similar event at the Abbaye  at Mont St Michel and Cathedral at St Lo, 

Bayeux Cathedral, since we have had our place in France, (12 years) been in a constant state of restoration, so Macron’s plan for a five year rebuild of Notre Dame de Paris seems a bit hopeful to say the least. We shall see...

 

 

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6 hours ago, alleeganger10 said:

Not sure about Paris, but I presume it’s the same, don't forget Sapeurs Pompiers are mostly volunteers

Paris is almost unique whereby all the members of the fireservice are from  military engineering regiments. I had one in my class at the Angers engineering school last year who was unable to continue due to injuries sustained at work and was requalifying as a structural engineer. 

 The only other place where that anomaly exists is in Marseille where the local naval fire service are also from the armed services. 

In the rest of France they are either full-time civilian fire-fighters or local volunteers. 

Ed

 

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On 17/04/2019 at 09:56, Cabin-boy said:

It's interesting how people are willing to provide money for its rebuilding (perhaps with tax-relief or sponsorship rights - 'Welcome to Notre Dame, presented by L'Oreal - because she worth it!') but not for its initial restoration project. A couple of French people I've spoken to this morning are already starting to detect that Macron is spinning this his way, to detract from other events and to justify not reintroducing a wealth tax. This could spectacularly backfire on him. Ed. 

This kind of disaster gets publicity no fundraising campaign of a normal kind would ever get and people respond based on emotion rather than logic I think. 

Anybody here who wishes to make a donation the Fondation du Patrimoine has set up a page here

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39 minutes ago, Millsy said:

This kind of disaster gets publicity no fundraising campaign of a normal kind would ever get and people respond based on emotion rather than logic I think. 

Anybody here who wishes to make a donation the Fondation du Patrimoine has set up a page here

14 BILLION! ??

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26 minutes ago, hf_uk said:

14 BILLION! ??

Really poor translation work. Click on the French language tab and it's 14+ million. If you do make a donation just make sure you use the French site, not the English site, or your bank balance might take 850 years to recover. Ed. 

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Frankly - I ask how much a roof will cost though. £14/15m is lovely - but they already have a billion in the bag before this was setup? So at the end of it all, give or take, a couple of  BILLION euros most likely. Now even factoring in the reduced timeframe, surely it won't cost that much? (not really off topic here... calling all church-roof engineers please!)

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1 hour ago, hf_uk said:

Frankly - I ask how much a roof will cost though. £14/15m is lovely - but they already have a billion in the bag before this was setup? So at the end of it all, give or take, a couple of  BILLION euros most likely. Now even factoring in the reduced timeframe, surely it won't cost that much? (not really off topic here... calling all church-roof engineers please!)

It has recently cost Chichester Cathedral £5.3m just to replace the roof covering (replacing post-war copper with lead) with some associated  repairs. It cost £800,000 just to put the scaffolding up.   

The English tab on the donation site has been corrected to millions!

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10 hours ago, neilcvx said:

I see the super rich French donors are get a 66% tax rebate on their donations.

Quelle suprise eh!!.....🤬

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Well, a tax rebate on charitable donations is perfectly normal - we get it here through gift aid.  If the rebate in France is 66% then all that means is that 66% is the taxation rate in France, which is outrageous.

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Re Gift Aid, I used to be happy to fill in the forms when visiting charitable 'attractions' but the rules appear to have changed a while back and now 'Gift Aid' entry often costs significantly more than standard admissions so now I don't. Finally got around to checking why this is and the explanation is below. One wonders why some sort of solution that standardises the admission price you pay at the door couldn't have been worked out but I suppose that is expecting too much! It never seems to be explained at the ticket office.

Quote

If you’re thinking of visiting a stately home or historic gardens at Easter, have a think about gift aid. The principles are well known to Radio Times readers.

You make a gift to a charity (or a community amateur sports club, say) and for every pound you donate, the Government gives an extra 25p to the charity.

The scheme is worth more than £1 billion a year to charities. However, one thing puzzles some of you. A reader from Buckinghamshire points out that the price-lists for entry to some attractions show a higher price if you choose to “gift aid” your entrance fee, and asks, “How can charities such as the National Trust, English Heritage and, doubtless, many others justify charging more for gift-aided admissions?”

The answer is a legal one. Any donation freely given to a charity can be gift-aided.

However, if you buy something from a charity – perhaps a scarf in a gift shop – then you cannot do that through gift aid because you’re receiving something in exchange.

The question is whether your entrance fee is a donation or a fee to enter.

When you pay to visit Blandings Castle, can the Emsworth Educational Charity that now owns it claim gift aid on the entry price? You buy a pleasant couple of hours looking round the Tudor house and gardens but is that a gift or a purchase?

HMRC says that if a visitor pays the normal price of entry, that is a purchase and not eligible for gift aid.

But if the visitor makes a donation of at least ten per cent more than the entry price and that donation allows entry, then gift aid can apply to the whole amount.

So if Blandings Castle has a standard charge of £10 for visitors, that isn’t eligible for gift aid. However, if it says that visitors who make a donation of at least £11 will get free entry in exchange for that gift, the whole amount is eligible for gift aid.

For an extra pound on the cost, then, the charity claims gift aid on the whole £11, recovering £2.75 from the Government. But remember that if you don’t pay income tax, you cannot use gift aid for your donations.

 

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1 hour ago, Gareth said:

Well, a tax rebate on charitable donations is perfectly normal - we get it here through gift aid.  If the rebate in France is 66% then all that means is that 66% is the taxation rate in France, which is outrageous.

Not sure how it works but I heard one of their friends saying they should get a 90% rebate.

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I think that there may be a few misconceptions here.

First of all, charitable donations do indeed attract a 66% tax rebate.  We make a modest €10 / month donation and the resulting €120 p.a. leads to a reduction in our annual tax liability of €80, thus costing us just €40.  However ........ such donations are ‘top-stopped’ at around €500 p.a. (can’t remember the exact figure).  Accordingly, unless the French government has granted a special extension in this case, (which would IMO be political madness in the current gilets jaunes situation) then these wealthy donors would effectively be receiving no tax relief.  Of course, if these massive donations are being made by the Companies (rather than the individuals) thus reducing their tax liability, then OK.  But what do you say over all this?   “No charitable donations please because somebody is going to have a lower tax liability as a result”  ??

Re tax rates, personal taxation starts at 11%, rising in tranches to 45%.  Its impossible to generalise, but a couple with two children with a combined income of (say) €45k would have a lower tax liability than they would in the UK.  There are plenty of myths flying around over France as a ‘heavily taxed country’.

Returning to the original point, if 10 million tax paying Frenchmen each made a donation of €100, it would legitimately cost each of them just €34 and voila ...... there’s €1bn for the rebuilding !   Of course, in that situation, it would cost Macron €660m !

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1 hour ago, Gardian said:

Returning to the original point, if 10 million tax paying Frenchmen each made a donation of €100, it would legitimately cost each of them just €34 and voila ...... there’s €1bn for the rebuilding !   Of course, in that situation, it would cost Macron €660m !

No it would cost Macron nothing, it would cost other tax payers 660m

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5 hours ago, cvabishop said:

Re Gift Aid, I used to be happy to fill in the forms when visiting charitable 'attractions' but the rules appear to have changed a while back and now 'Gift Aid' entry often costs significantly more than standard admissions so now I don't. Finally got around to checking why this is and the explanation is below. One wonders why some sort of solution that standardises the admission price you pay at the door couldn't have been worked out but I suppose that is expecting too much! It never seems to be explained at the ticket office.

 

The change was brought in after some agitation from non charging museums who naturally were actually losing out from giving free admission. All the change has meant in practice is monster queues at some places as the admission desk takes all the details they need for gift aid - all shouted out at top volume despite GDPR - and nothing more for the non chargers! It extended gift aid in a way that IMHO it was never intended to apply any more than it was intended to allow charity shops to collect gift aid on sales as if they were agents for the donor. 

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