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TonyMWeaver

Brittany Ferries Wants To Buy Condor Ferries

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17 minutes ago, Fine Whine said:

 

Well this one would fit as well Gareth.....ūü§£¬†(excuse the cut and paste)

Résultat de recherche d'images pour "ferry lifeboats"

Ha ha love it. By the way Guernsey has always had the most accessible and bigger harbour...and there have been discussions by some politicians recently on a new ro ro berth to cater for 160 metre long ferries. Would be accommodated on a new outer arm at St. Peter Port harbour or at Longue Hougue reclamation site up north. Jersey will no doubt follow our lead in time.

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In today's Jersey Evening Post they report that the Jersey government are in talks to replace Goodwill with a ro pax vessel. That's exactly what we need.

Screenshot_2019-08-12-12-31-20.png

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1 hour ago, Nick Hyde said:

In today's Jersey Evening Post they report that the Jersey government are in talks to replace Goodwill with a ro pax vessel. That's exactly what we need.

The Liberation haters won't like this, they want rid of that first.

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11 minutes ago, TonyMWeaver said:

The Liberation haters won't like this, they want rid of that first.

A second ro pax would help minimise the "fall out"  (in terms of dusruption to travel plans) that often happens when the Liberation is cancelled. So a step in the right direction I'd say.

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On 12/08/2019 at 13:52, TonyMWeaver said:

The Liberation haters won't like this, they want rid of that first.

Such is life....ūü§£. ¬†¬†

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On 12/08/2019 at 13:52, TonyMWeaver said:

The Liberation haters

What a very strange choice of phrase.

How can you ‚Äúhate‚ÄĚ an inanimate object?

I know plenty of people whose view is (like mine) that Liberation is not the answer to the requirement for a regular, reliable, year-round multi-option lifeline service.  

And she isn‚Äôt. ¬†But does that make us ‚Äúhaters‚ÄĚ? ¬†It‚Äôs not a word you see that much outside the gutter press.

With a proper ro-pax service from Portsmouth (twice a day), many of the perceived deficiencies of Liberation become irrelevant, and she becomes freed to play the in-season support role to which she is properly suited.  What’s the problem with that?

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6 hours ago, Gareth said:

What a very strange choice of phrase.

How can you ‚Äúhate‚ÄĚ an inanimate object?

I know plenty of people whose view is (like mine) that Liberation is not the answer to the requirement for a regular, reliable, year-round multi-option lifeline service.  

And she isn‚Äôt. ¬†But does that make us ‚Äúhaters‚ÄĚ? ¬†It‚Äôs not a word you see that much outside the gutter press.

With a proper ro-pax service from Portsmouth (twice a day), many of the perceived deficiencies of Liberation become irrelevant, and she becomes freed to play the in-season support role to which she is properly suited.  What’s the problem with that?

If you are suggesting that Liberation only runs from May to September (or thereabouts) like NEX does (and if BF do take over Condor then that would be a likely scenario) where does that leave Poole for the rest of the year? The passenger traffic through the port would be cut by perhaps a third or more. On the plus side, those travelling out of season would have more rapid access to the UK motorway network via Portsmouth and in the summer there would be more choice of crossings. There could also be the option of tweaking Bretagne's arrival time in St Malo slightly so she gets in 15 minutes before Rapide leaves (she would need to be on the old berth) and transfer people across for the trip to St Helier in the morning while the other Ro-pax (Clipper) does an overnight to Guernsey before continuing to Jersey. That way both islands are connected to the UK southbound allowing tourists better access and islanders a guaranteed way to get home. Ed. 

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1 hour ago, Cabin-boy said:

If you are suggesting that Liberation only runs from May to September

No, I wasn’t suggesting that particularly.

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As HT used to keep saying¬†about BF keeping Barfleur in Poole to keep another operator out, then surely they would want Liberation to be the same, another operator might well step in. ¬†They need to keep Lib where she is doing what she does, regardless of those who are not to fond of her. ¬†Lib might be better under BF anyway. ¬†Who knows? ¬†As for haters - that is a word straight out of celebrity gossip magazines. ¬†I call them the moaners...ūüėĄ¬†

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The point is that with the existence of a reliable twice-daily ferry option from Portsmouth, it matters less what is done with Liberation (as she is no longer the lifeline).  They could happily keep her doing what she is now, with cancellations mattering less because it will not be her or nothing.  So the twice daily ropax facility takes away the core reason why there is unhappiness about Liberation (perceived reliability).  With that pressure off, she can happily continue to provide her niche role at Poole.

Having said that, I reckon there could be a good chance, if BF does take over the operation, that BF could swap Liberation and NEX around.  It could make a lot of sense, with NEX at Poole being more able to maintain a reliable service to the CI ports and Liberation being less constrained by port confines at Portsmouth and Cherbourg.  Portsmouth-Cherbourg would benefit from increased capacity, and NEX may even be able to go back to running twice a day from Poole.

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I thought 'Haters' was a pretty reasonable term to use, have you not seen the Condor Liberation and Condor Ferries - Good and Bad Facebook page recently?

If BF do get CF, my guess is that NEX would still do the Portsmouth/Cherbourg run in the summer and switch to Poole/Channel Islands in the winter.

Edited by TonyMWeaver

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47 minutes ago, TonyMWeaver said:

I thought 'Haters' was a pretty reasonable term to use, have you not seen the Condor Liberation and Condor Ferries - Good and Bad Facebook page recently?

No, I don‚Äôt do ferries by Facebook. ¬†The discourse I involve myself in is in civilised forums like this one, and I don‚Äôt detect ‚Äúhate‚ÄĚ in the posts that have addressed Liberation‚Äôs limitations.

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3 hours ago, Khaines said:

another operator might well step in.

They can't, the CI's offer out for tender exclusive rights to serve them. Condor have a 10 year licence which runs until 2024.

The comparison @Gareth makes between NEX and Libby is an interesting one as they both have a 3.5m wave height restriction which means anything Force 5 & above and neither is going anywhere, couple that with the speed restrictions at Poole which are only lifted around Brownsea then toward the berth between October and March then your looking at both light aluminium designs struggling in a Force 4 when the wind invariably blows up the channel from the Atlantic. Another issue which may need to be taken into consideration is the 5kt speed limit passing Sandbanks. PEC holders must give way to the chainlink ferry... if your under the pilot it's the opposite, the Bramble Bush Bay must then give way which to me suggests that slowing and then giving way when being broadsided by a Force 4 15kt wind is going to give you problems. 

Personally I believe NEX would suffer the same at Poole.

Maybe @TonyMWeaver could clarify, Portsmouth has the same speed restriction but the area is sheltered by the I.O.W. which would suggest to me that Libby would do better there. If that's the case, at 125 nautical miles berth to berth I'd run Libby & the Clipper from Portsmouth with a new RoPax from Poole.

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Just to highlight the very positive benefits of two ro paxes from Portsmouth.

- Nightly sailings in both directions - late departure from UK allowing plenty of time to arrive. Early morning in arrival in UK. Perfect for islanders and perfect for UK origin tourists. 

- Much improved reliable dependable service.

Hopefully the new ro pax would have more cabins than Clipper. At least 250 berths as opposed to Clipper's 160. 

 

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1 hour ago, TonyMWeaver said:

I thought 'Haters' was a pretty reasonable term to use, have you not seen the Condor Liberation and Condor Ferries - Good and Bad Facebook page recently?

If BF do get CF, my guess is that NEX would still do the Portsmouth/Cherbourg run in the summer and switch to Poole/Channel Islands in the winter.

I used to lurk there but it is so full of spite by the usual suspects that it is not worth visiting. ¬†I would describe the word ‚Äúhate‚ÄĚ though by certain individuals though...ūüėČ. I got added to it once but removed myself immediately...ūüėā

Edited by Khaines
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@jonnoYes, as far as Poole is concerned I agree - but when conditions become problematic at Poole they will be problematic for fast craft out at sea too, so it’s not really an additional problem.

I was thinking more about the problems that Liberation has had at St Helier and St Peter Port, which are exacerbated by her size and the fact that the harbours are very tight for her (making windy conditions disproportionately problematic for her in those ports).  My feeling is that NEX would probably cope with those constraints better.

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You will find a lot of members of that Facebook group are islanders and they are the ones that get disproportionally affected by the current situation. Much more so than people in the UK. We lose tourism trade and cannot always rely on certainity in getting to a destination at a set time. However, sometimes that Facebook group can be too negative and critical for the sake of it.

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49 minutes ago, Nick Hyde said:

Just to highlight the very positive benefits of two ro paxes from Portsmouth.

- Nightly sailings in both directions - late departure from UK allowing plenty of time to arrive. Early morning in arrival in UK. Perfect for islanders and perfect for UK origin tourists. 

- Much improved reliable dependable service.

Hopefully the new ro pax would have more cabins than Clipper. At least 250 berths as opposed to Clipper's 160. 

 

Nick, the problem I see is how to provide a service from Portsmouth overnight that satisfies people in both Guernsey AND Jersey. If she arrives in Guernsey at 7am and takes an hour to turn around them she won't be in Jersey until perhaps 10 which seems late for an overnight service. To be in Jersey by 8.30 it means getting into Guernsey at silly-o'clock hence my earlier suggestion of a trans-ship route via St Malo which, while longer, gets you into Jersey before 9. The evening return is less problematic because a departure from Jersey at 7pm and Guernsey at 10pm gives the Jersey passengers time to eat before bed.  Ed. 

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1 hour ago, jonno said:

....couple that with the speed restrictions at Poole which are only lifted around Brownsea then toward the berth between October and March then your looking at both light aluminium designs struggling in a Force 4 when the wind invariably blows up the channel from the Atlantic.  Another issue which may need to be taken into consideration is the 5kt speed limit passing Sandbanks. PEC holders must give way to the chainlink ferry... if your under the pilot it's the opposite, the Bramble Bush Bay must then give way which to me suggests that slowing and then giving way when being broadsided by a Force 4 15kt wind is going to give you problems.

Do you have a source for the speed limits and giving way to the chain ferry?

I was under the impression that the speed limit was 10 knots in all areas of the Harbour and to 1.4km seaward of South Haven Point with the exception of quiet areas and The Quay and Holes Bay which is 6 knots.  The October to end of March relaxation raises the limit above 10 knots in the Wareham, Middle Ship and North Channels.

Also a vessel with a PEC holder is considered to be a vessel under compulsory pilotage so the Chain Ferry would give way and will generally sit on the Studland side when a large vessel passes as the deeper water is on the Sandbanks side.

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45 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

Nick, the problem I see is how to provide a service from Portsmouth overnight that satisfies people in both Guernsey AND Jersey. If she arrives in Guernsey at 7am and takes an hour to turn around them she won't be in Jersey until perhaps 10 which seems late for an overnight service. To be in Jersey by 8.30 it means getting into Guernsey at silly-o'clock hence my earlier suggestion of a trans-ship route via St Malo which, while longer, gets you into Jersey before 9. The evening return is less problematic because a departure from Jersey at 7pm and Guernsey at 10pm gives the Jersey passengers time to eat before bed.  Ed. 

I think the schedule of a second ro pax vessel to replace Goodwill would have to be slightly altered. But I think Guernsey bound passenger will have to just accept a very very early morning arrival. Arrival in Jersey some 4 or so hours later in the morning would be ok for them. And I can say that as I am Guernsey lad!! I think overall the advantages outweigh the negatives with a second ro pax.

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I wasn't thinking particularly about only having a single ro-pax as the second would be able to do the opposite trip at the same time. If you are happy with an early arrival that's fine but they will have to give passengers the option of having that dreaded Breton wake-up music or not as those heading for Jersey won't like being woken up at 5am. Ed. 

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When Sealink ran its 2-ship service from Portsmouth, the overnight sailings were directly between Portsmouth and St Helier in both directions.  The ships then called at St Peter Port on their daytime run back the other way.

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13 minutes ago, Timmy said:

Do you have a source for the speed limits and giving way to the chain ferry?

I was under the impression that the speed limit was 10 knots in all areas of the Harbour and to 1.4km seaward of South Haven Point with the exception of quiet areas and The Quay and Holes Bay which is 6 knots.  The October to end of March relaxation raises the limit above 10 knots in the Wareham, Middle Ship and North Channels.

Also a vessel with a PEC holder is considered to be a vessel under compulsory pilotage so the Chain Ferry would give way and will generally sit on the Studland side when a large vessel passes as the deeper water is on the Sandbanks side.

It's in the 2016 Poole Pilotage manual. Inbound the chain ferry gives way due to Chapmans Peak, outbound it doesn't. PEC holders must also have a pilot aboard for fog and if they are mastering a different vessel, it doesn't matter how well they know the vessel or how many 'acts' they've performed.

The October - March relaxation in Brownsea Roads and the Middle Channel is fine but in Summer storms similar to what we've experienced the restriction isn't lifted. I wouldn't want to be doing 10kts in a full to capacity Trimaran at the beginning of August against a 4kt incoming tide and a 15kt wind with only 6 foot of water under my keel.

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I think Condor Ferries would be very keen to not tinker too much with the schedule currently serviced by Goodwill. Current arrival times in Gtyernsey and Jersey suit freight hauliers well. 

Schedules for passengers would not be ideal but still workable. 

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21 minutes ago, Nick Hyde said:

I think Condor Ferries would be very keen to not tinker too much with the schedule currently serviced by Goodwill. Current arrival times in Gtyernsey and Jersey suit freight hauliers well. 

Schedules for passengers would not be ideal but still workable. 

I'd imagine it would be fine left as is and you're right Nick the Guernsey arrival is ideal for fresh food deliveries, newspapers etc.

Passengers to and from Ireland don't have a problem getting off a ferry in the middle of the night at Holyhead, Fishguard or Pembroke and with cabins at least you'd manage a few hours sleep. For Guernsey there's not exactly a lengthy onward journey at 4 in the morning is there? Heading the other way you'd enjoy a solid sleep and then 6 hours plus to enjoy the sailing.

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