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Condor sold to consortium including BF


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We have often chosen this route. We travel with 2 dogs and the break in the Channel Islands works well for us. Yes, it takes most of the day, but so does St. Malo to Portsmouth on a day crossing (whic

PORTELET ( 1967, former LION of P&O Ferries) had left the fleet by the time the ROZEL ( 1974, former St EDMUND, KEREN) was chartered by BCIF from Cenargo and entered service with the company on 21

Both the Longue Hougue reclamation site at St Sampsons in Guernsey and the reclamation area by St Helier power station in Jeesey have both been been discussed as possible future ferry terminals. The h

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Before Nick replies, here are some statistics with a very basic analysis. 

From the Condor website (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.condorferries.co.uk/help-info/about-us&ved=2ahUKEwiiif6q3f3lAhUDxhoKHdPABCQQFjABegQIDhAG&usg=AOvVaw3wnjUUX2I5jL7y97iy8SD8)

Each year we carry over 1 million passengers and 200,000 passenger vehicles on our services.

So if we take the Jersey population (about 100,000) to represent 60% and the Guernsey (around 60,000) to represent the other 40% (and leaving out those who are going UK to France and back via the islands or those visiting from France) and weighting the demand at 30% out of season (November to April) and 70% in high season (May to October) we get :

about 950 passengers per day travelling in the high season and 420 out of season.

Around 200 cars per day in the high season and maybe 80 out of season. 

Most of that is currently carried by Liberation and Clipper (because I'm leaving out those coming in from St Malo on Rapide) so how does that compare to a BF ferry? It looks to me like a ferry similar to Armorique would manage with that load as long as some passenger spaces could be closed off when not needed. Or two mini-Armoriques to allow travel both ways day and night as that's the crux of the problem. Hence my idea of trans-shipping those who wish to travel overnight via Cherbourg or St Malo on at least one of the legs. If not, they have to buy two brand new ferries and then either drop the fast link to the UK or keep it available as cover for refits etc. 

Ed. 

 

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4 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

Before Nick replies, here are some statistics with a very basic analysis. 

From the Condor website (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.condorferries.co.uk/help-info/about-us&ved=2ahUKEwiiif6q3f3lAhUDxhoKHdPABCQQFjABegQIDhAG&usg=AOvVaw3wnjUUX2I5jL7y97iy8SD8)

Each year we carry over 1 million passengers and 200,000 passenger vehicles on our services.

So if we take the Jersey population (about 100,000) to represent 60% and the Guernsey (around 60,000) to represent the other 40% (and leaving out those who are going UK to France and back via the islands or those visiting from France) and weighting the demand at 30% out of season (November to April) and 70% in high season (May to October) we get :

about 950 passengers per day travelling in the high season and 420 out of season.

Around 200 cars per day in the high season and maybe 80 out of season. 

Most of that is currently carried by Liberation and Clipper (because I'm leaving out those coming in from St Malo on Rapide) so how does that compare to a BF ferry? It looks to me like a ferry similar to Armorique would manage with that load as long as some passenger spaces could be closed off when not needed. Or two mini-Armoriques to allow travel both ways day and night as that's the crux of the problem. Hence my idea of trans-shipping those who wish to travel overnight via Cherbourg or St Malo on at least one of the legs. If not, they have to buy two brand new ferries and then either drop the fast link to the UK or keep it available as cover for refits etc. 

Ed. 

 

By sea Guernsey had 321,244 passenger movements in 2017, 45,000 less than 2013. By air the figure was 813,324 which again compared to 2013 is a drop of 45,500.  

Jersey welcomed 331,000 passengers by sea and 795,000 by air.

https://www.gov.gg/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=115401&p=0

https://www.gov.je/Government/JerseyInFigures/TravelTransport/pages/seaairtransport.aspx

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14 minutes ago, jonno said:

By sea Guernsey had 321,244 passenger movements in 2017, 45,000 less than 2013. By air the figure was 813,324 which again compared to 2013 is a drop of 45,500.  

Jersey welcomed 331,000 passengers by sea and 795,000 by air.

https://www.gov.gg/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=115401&p=0

https://www.gov.je/Government/JerseyInFigures/TravelTransport/pages/seaairtransport.aspx

Thanks Jonno. The only slight problem with those figures is they will include those passengers arriving via Manche Iles Express. The two vessels carry 250 and 300 passengers each and are generally full (in my past and recent experience) in the high season and at weekends. That was why I took Condor's own figures. However, the other problem with those figures is we neve no way of knowing how many Condor passengers were simply travelling between the islands and not to the UK. Ed. 

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On 21/11/2019 at 15:05, VikingVoyager said:

From what you've said, I'm assuming that last comment is based on her sea keeping? 

It does sound like NEX would only offer marginal differences if offered as a swap for Liberation. Running both (on the same route) at peak times sounds like it would please customers but not be economically viable.

I think NEX would be suffer less berthing related problems ar St Peter Port when strong winds can he a issue. Libby clearly has problems compared to Incats in this area.

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7 hours ago, Gareth said:

Nick, is there enough potential demand to warrant running ferries the size of a BF cruise ferry to the islands?

I think a BF cruise ferry operating alongside a fast car ferry would be too large for the islands, even if it was possible for it to berth here. However, if no fast ferry operated from the UK and we had the harbours modified, a large ro pax with both high freight and passenger capacity would work. Perhaps a ferry 150 metres long carrying 90 trailers with cabin accommodation for 500 passengers. 

The freight demand is clearly there with our combined population of 162,000 people. This compares to the Isle of Man's population of 85,000.

Edited by Nick Hyde
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37 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

Thanks Jonno. The only slight problem with those figures is they will include those passengers arriving via Manche Iles Express. The two vessels carry 250 and 300 passengers each and are generally full (in my past and recent experience) in the high season and at weekends. That was why I took Condor's own figures. However, the other problem with those figures is we neve no way of knowing how many Condor passengers were simply travelling between the islands and not to the UK. Ed. 

The Jersey link shows the French passengers separately, I think the figure is 435,000.

The Guernsey info say's 46.4% is U.K.

Edited by jonno
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There is absolutely no sense in discontinuing the high speed services from St Malo as they bring in day-trippers and weekend visitors who want as much time ashore as possible. And I think that fully replacing the fast link to the UK would be unpopular with some. I suspect we all thought that with BF getting involved there would be a published strategy to resolve the current situation and offer a solution in the short term that would then evolve into a more coherent long term strategy with new ships and perhaps even routes. Now we know it's only a 25% involvement, and more behind the scenes than hands on, that opportunity is looking less likely. Ed. 

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On 21/11/2019 at 13:13, Khaines said:

Having been on both, in the summer season in good weather, no difference.  BF have never operated NEX in the winter months so nobody knows how she’d perform.  

Arguably NEX just about washes her face annually when it comes to £££. The upkeep and Winter hibernation care costs, vs few busy months of operation. 
I wonder if she ran a much longer season would she be more of a breadwinner, or would the extra battering she took just cause the maintenance bill rise proportionally...?

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2 hours ago, Gareth said:

Thanks Nick.  Follow up question, then, is what the case for enlarging the harbours if the only reason for doing so would be to accommodate ferries that are only not too large if all other services were discontinued?

Economics I think. Have one large multi purpose ferry to replace two ro ros. More economical and more cost effective.

However, the biggest reason is greatly increased number of ferries on the second market that can come to our harbours. It means having more choice and actually more choice over potential of replacement ferry operators if the incumbent ferry company lets us down.

Edited by Nick Hyde
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2 hours ago, hf_uk said:

Arguably NEX just about washes her face annually when it comes to £££. The upkeep and Winter hibernation care costs, vs few busy months of operation. 
I wonder if she ran a much longer season would she be more of a breadwinner, or would the extra battering she took just cause the maintenance bill rise proportionally...?

It would be interesting to see how she is in a longer season, say from March to November, keeping her in hibernation for just the deepest winter months. 

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1 hour ago, Nick Hyde said:

Economics I think. Have one large multi purpose ferry to replace two ro ros. More economical and more cost effective.

However, the biggest reason is greatly increased number of ferries on the second market that can come to our harbours. It means having more choice and actually more choice over potential of replacement ferry operators if the incumbent ferry company lets us down.

If I were in charge in the islands, the minimum requirements for any new ferry contract would be overnight sailings from both the islands and the mainland each night (or six nights a week). I can't understand why this hasn't been done before.

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On 20/11/2019 at 21:57, Gareth said:

The mystery remains, however, that if BF feels that this is the limit to which they can be involved at present, then what is their reason for wanting to become involved on that limited uninfluential basis?  Long term pitch for the future down the line?  Lot of damage that could be done to the BF brand by association with an unreformed Condor in the mean time.

I believe the share is rather influential. It's not just a seat at the table.

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On 17/11/2019 at 21:03, Gareth said:

Beauport and Havelet were quite a comedown from Rozel.  Although Rozel had Portelet as a running mate, which was hardly an ideal match!

PORTELET ( 1967, former LION of P&O Ferries) had left the fleet by the time the ROZEL ( 1974, former St EDMUND, KEREN) was chartered by BCIF from Cenargo and entered service with the company on 21/03/1989.

The PORTELET had finished her charter with BCIF on the 01/10/1988 after two seasons operating from Weymouth to the Channel Islands.

With BCIF concentrating their entire operations at Poole from January 1989 rather than from Portsmouth the Weymouth link was dropped. The PORTELET finished her final sailing from the Channel Islands to Weymouth on the 01/10/1988 and returned to her owners, the Greek ferry company Marlines where she resumed the name of BARONESS M.

BCIF started operating from Poole on the 03/01/1989, with the CORBIERE (1970, former APOLLO) arriving at approximately 18.00 at the Dorset port on a "light" sailing from Portsmouth where she had arrived earlier that morning on her final arrival at the port from the Channel Islands.

The HAVELET (1977, former CORNOUAILLES) and ROZEL were running mates on POOLE to the Channel Islands of Guernsey and Jersey with the HAVELET operating the overnight sailing from the Channel Islands to Poole and the ROZEL operating the overnight sailing from Poole

The ROZEL left the BCIF fleet in September 1992 and was replaced by the BEAUPORT (1973, former PRINCE OF FUNDY, PRINCE OF BRITANNY, REINE MATHILDE).

Nick has summed it up pretty well regarding the eventual demise of BCIF and the shortcomings regarding the fleet.

As an ex former employee of BCIF I have very fond memories of my time with the company between 1987 and 1993. Having worked aboard the CORBIERE, ROZEL, HAVELET and BEAUPORT in that order in the positions of Steward, Shop Manager, Stores Manager, Food and Beverage Manager, Second Steward and Deputy Purser all in that order.

I can honestly say that I was totally distraught when BCIF ceased operations as it was a fantastic company to work for and my shipmates were a joy to work with especially those on the "HAPPY" HAVELET.

On a side note I'm rather upset about the idea of the APOLLO, the former CORBIERE potentially being sunk off the Canadian coast as a diving wreck The fact that she was the first in a series of sisters dating from 1970, affectionately known as the "Papenburg sisters", she's certainly had a long career lasting almost fifty years.

This is great news for Condor Ferries as well as the Channel Islands as a whole. With Britanny Ferries getting involved once again in the Channel Islands hopefully this will lead to better things and looking forward in time were see an eventual replacement of the current Condor Ferries fleet.

Only dreaming on my part and I honestly don't envisage it ever happening but they could always bring back the British Channel Island Ferries name and have the ships fully crewed by British seaman again 😉

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Nice idea C97.  I believe the name is still registered and owned by BF (?) so it is eminently plausible.  And coming back to my earlier point about reputation, wouldn’t be a bad idea at all.  The Condor name is tainted in PR terms, and a return to a happier era of branding would be no bad thing.

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2 hours ago, canberra97 said:

PORTELET ( 1967, former LION of P&O Ferries) had left the fleet by the time the ROZEL ( 1974, former St EDMUND, KEREN) was chartered by BCIF from Cenargo and entered service with the company on 21/03/1989.

The PORTELET had finished her charter with BCIF on the 01/10/1988 after two seasons operating from Weymouth to the Channel Islands.

With BCIF concentrating their entire operations at Poole from January 1989 rather than from Portsmouth the Weymouth link was dropped. The PORTELET finished her final sailing from the Channel Islands to Weymouth on the 01/10/1988 and returned to her owners, the Greek ferry company Marlines where she resumed the name of BARONESS M.

BCIF started operating from Poole on the 03/01/1989, with the CORBIERE (1970, former APOLLO) arriving at approximately 18.00 at the Dorset port on a "light" sailing from Portsmouth where she had arrived earlier that morning on her final arrival at the port from the Channel Islands.

The HAVELET (1977, former CORNOUAILLES) and ROZEL were running mates on POOLE to the Channel Islands of Guernsey and Jersey with the HAVELET operating the overnight sailing from the Channel Islands to Poole and the ROZEL operating the overnight sailing from Poole

The ROZEL left the BCIF fleet in September 1992 and was replaced by the BEAUPORT (1973, former PRINCE OF FUNDY, PRINCE OF BRITANNY, REINE MATHILDE).

Nick has summed it up pretty well regarding the eventual demise of BCIF and the shortcomings regarding the fleet.

As an ex former employee of BCIF I have very fond memories of my time with the company between 1987 and 1993. Having worked aboard the CORBIERE, ROZEL, HAVELET and BEAUPORT in that order in the positions of Steward, Shop Manager, Stores Manager, Food and Beverage Manager, Second Steward and Deputy Purser all in that order.

I can honestly say that I was totally distraught when BCIF ceased operations as it was a fantastic company to work for and my shipmates were a joy to work with especially those on the "HAPPY" HAVELET.

On a side note I'm rather upset about the idea of the APOLLO, the former CORBIERE potentially being sunk off the Canadian coast as a diving wreck The fact that she was the first in a series of sisters dating from 1970, affectionately known as the "Papenburg sisters", she's certainly had a long career lasting almost fifty years.

This is great news for Condor Ferries as well as the Channel Islands as a whole. With Britanny Ferries getting involved once again in the Channel Islands hopefully this will lead to better things and looking forward in time were see an eventual replacement of the current Condor Ferries fleet.

Only dreaming on my part and I honestly don't envisage it ever happening but they could always bring back the British Channel Island Ferries name and have the ships fully crewed by British seaman again 😉

Yep need the BCIF name back or perhaps even just it's original name Channel Island Ferries Ltd. After all Condor with Brittany's involvement could be BCIF Mk 2.

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This is one of two of the new trimarans being built for Fred Olsen by Austal, 117m, looks like it has a funnel and there doesn’t look like it has a vast open sundeck like Libby - one of the best things about her, being able to go and spend the crossings up there in summer. ( not in winter though, from personal experience!)  Would BF ever think about getting something like these, Libby was a concept vessel, and Fred Olsen are happy with the one they have - I would have thought a couple of these in the BF fleet would be quite good.

https://www.bairdmaritime.com/work-boat-world/passenger-vessel-world/ro-pax/austal-begins-construction-of-117m-trimaran-for-fred-olsen/

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5 minutes ago, Khaines said:

This is one of two of the new trimarans being built for Fred Olsen by Austal, 117m, looks like it has a funnel and there doesn’t look like it has a vast open sundeck like Libby - one of the best things about her, being able to go and spend the crossings up there in summer. ( not in winter though, from personal experience!)  Would BF ever think about getting something like these, Libby was a concept vessel, and Fred Olsen are happy with the one they have - I would have thought a couple of these in the BF fleet would be quite good.

https://www.bairdmaritime.com/work-boat-world/passenger-vessel-world/ro-pax/austal-begins-construction-of-117m-trimaran-for-fred-olsen/

Let's hope, not ever. If someone from Brittany Ferries or Condor Ferries is reading this please take note. 😀

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The one out in the Canary Islands, given that she has to deal with Atlantic swells and Gulf Stream currents, seems to get generally positive reviews despite not being cheap in comparison to inter-island flights. Khaines, you and I would probably be the only passengers onboard if BF did get one! Ed. 

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11 minutes ago, Paully said:

Rather more than any name change, what is urgently required is for Condor to provide regular and more reliable services at an affordable price. 

The big question is whether that is actually possible with the current fleet line-up.  Actual operational changes are badly needed, but the reputational issue is  also a nettle that will have to be grasped.  I don’t know whether that is redeemable under the Condor name.

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