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"BRETAGNE" looking perfect

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@Gareth I can see your point but I’m still not convinced that that is their plan time will tell a long by time if the current new builds timescale is anything to go by.

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I tend to agree as the Armorique's project name was 'Bretagne II', but stranger things have happened...

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There is without doubt a strong desire within BF, SICA etc to have a new emblematic ship. The Bretagne 2 designation allows it to potentially serve Spain as #1 did, or St Malo as she now does. The point is to have a stand-out figurehead for the company. How much is just heart rather than head.....? Time will indeed tell.

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12 hours ago, nick hall said:

Jonno, you would only lose 400 berths per week to Spain if you replaced the current vessels with 3 e flexers, I would imagine that would only be an issue for upto 6 weeks a year if at all. In fact the increase in lane meters would offset any lost revenue in cabin sales.

Sorry Nick I don't see how that adds up, Pont Aven has 2400 berths, Cap Finistere has 842 & Baie du Seine has 610.

That's 3852.

The E-Flexer will have a maximum of 1000 berths... 3000.

Nor is there an increase in lane metres as Pont Aven has 3500 and both the Cap & BDS have 2000 each... that's 7500.

The BF E-Flexer is reduced to 2500 as they aren't having the dedicated car deck of 600 metres... the same 7500.

The E-flexer is also a lot slower than PA & Cap and is nominally slower than BDS, they won't be able to fulfil the current timetable performed now by the existing vessels.

12 hours ago, Gareth said:

Well it may be “on hold”, but that is a pretty clear indication that Bretagne 2, even though delayed, is the current plan.  Which must mean that the current plan does not involve moving PA to St Malo.

BF towers have code named three of their last four new builds Bretagne II. Mont St Michel, Pont Aven & Armorique. Gareth In terms of age and longevity my take on it is that the longer it's negotiated over the greater the chance that they'll opt for a new Spanish cruise ferry. Pont Aven has been battering down the Bay for 16 years now, I doubt they'll want to see that move into a second decade.

In an ideal world back in 2014 the plan was to replace PA on the Spanish sailings in 2017. A new modern Bretagne would be similar in size to PA, maybe common sense dictates that a vessel such as this would be better suited replacing the one vessel which SOMABRET own which takes the most punishment in terms of flexing & stress with the added value of being able to serve the current France-Ireland rotation and deputise for the St Malo service over the winter?

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That was my thinking @colin Bretagne 2 will without a doubt be the “flagship” of the fleet I would suspect that it will be financing and  maximising the money making potential of the ship that will decide the route unless of course the go full heart and do something off beat which isn’t beyond the realms of possibility.

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Jonno, I was taking into account the number of sailings by each ship

Pont Aven x 2      
Cap Finistere x 3    
Etretat x 2

Fakta states Pont Aven has 2012 berths, which added to Cap & Etretat gives a weekly total of 7406.

I would also contest your figure for lane meters on Pont Aven, 3500m is more than Galicia will have yet has only one vehicle deck.

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I would have thought that BF would have learnt the lesson re customised designs from European shipyards, Logically they should go for an eflexer of the correct length and start running a proper business independent of the wishes of the ship financiers (be they regions or European subsidies !)

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1 hour ago, nick hall said:

Jonno, I was taking into account the number of sailings by each ship

Pont Aven x 2      
Cap Finistere x 3    
Etretat x 2

Fakta states Pont Aven has 2012 berths, which added to Cap & Etretat gives a weekly total of 7406.

I would also contest your figure for lane meters on Pont Aven, 3500m is more than Galicia will have yet has only one vehicle deck.

I've just gone over the Meyer Werft spec for her. She has 3500 lane metres, pax capacity of 2400 with 2274 berths. The berths were increased from an original 1990 as BF decided to half the number of inside 2 berths to 142 making the other 142 4 berth.

The revised overall berth figure is 3726.

The E Flexers max speed is 22 knots none of them will be able to fulfil the Cap's timetable nor will they sail from Plymouth as the Pont does on a Sunday which will add even more hours. BF's current Spanish timetable will be totally revised.

Their berth capacity with be 927, a total of 2781 beds and the original reconfigured lane metres of 3100  is now reduced to 2500 as there is no 600 lm/ 120 capacity dedicated car deck.  The E-Flexers lane metres are spread over several decks due to their height of 5 metres rather than their length.

The standard configured E Flexer such as Stena Estrid has around 650 berths due to the car deck & 3100 lm's.

Edited by jonno
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On 07/02/2020 at 08:20, Paully said:

When Gourvennec commissioned the Bretagne he wanted the Architects to produce a `cruise liner` with the emphasis on `Liner`. It had`nt been done before....

In the same way that when they commissioned the Armorique, the Architects went into a Welcome Break, and said "that's the look we're going for" 😉

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10 hours ago, jonno said:

Sorry Nick I don't see how that adds up, Pont Aven has 2400 berths, Cap Finistere has 842 & Baie du Seine has 610.

That's 3852.

The E-Flexer will have a maximum of 1000 berths... 3000.

Nor is there an increase in lane metres as Pont Aven has 3500 and both the Cap & BDS have 2000 each... that's 7500.

The BF E-Flexer is reduced to 2500 as they aren't having the dedicated car deck of 600 metres... the same 7500.

 

 

Jonno, not sure i explained myself very well earlier let me see if I can do a better job tonight.

I agree that there will be a reduction in berths, if I take your figure of 2274 for Pont Aven and based on each ship doing two return trips a week to Spain plus a third from Cap Finistere gives a weekly total of 7930. If the E Flexers sail daily to Spain, and I think they will, that will provide 7000 berths per week, so a reduction of 930 per week. But my view is BF probably only sell out Pont Aven for 8 sailings a year in the summer holiday so the reduction I've described above won't matter for 48 weeks per year. And for 5 sailings every week there will be an increase in berths. Plus with a daily sailing BF can spread demand over several sailings therefor reducing crew costs, the crew/passenger ratio will come down. The large crew on Pont Aven can't be efficient when she's half full, although this argument holds as true if she moves to St. Malo year round.

The lane meters on Pont Aven may be 3500, but that includes the mezzanine which isn't usable for freight, so the freight lane meters will increase when all three E Flexers are in service. Galicia will have 3100m, the same as Stena Estrid, the upper car garage isn't included in the total. The reduction for Salamanca & Santona to 2500m is due I believe to the LNG fueling system.

All the above leads me to think that if BF can't fund Bretagne 2, Cork - Roscoff will be sacrificed once the E Flexers are in service. On the basis that this route is more expendable than Portsmouth - St. Malo. Plus revenue to Spain will be up, mainly through increased freight, revenue to St. Malo will be up thanks to Pont Aven's larger capacity, Bretagne sells out very quickly over summer. And there'll be no need for shore staff in Cork for one sailing per week.

Of course BF may surprise us and run 3 sailings a week ex Cork using Bretagne or Cap Finistere.

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11 minutes ago, nick hall said:

Jonno, not sure i explained myself very well earlier let me see if I can do a better job tonight.

I agree that there will be a reduction in berths, if I take your figure of 2274 for Pont Aven and based on each ship doing two return trips a week to Spain plus a third from Cap Finistere gives a weekly total of 7930. If the E Flexers sail daily to Spain, and I think they will, that will provide 7000 berths per week, so a reduction of 930 per week. But my view is BF probably only sell out Pont Aven for 8 sailings a year in the summer holiday so the reduction I've described above won't matter for 48 weeks per year. And for 5 sailings every week there will be an increase in berths. Plus with a daily sailing BF can spread demand over several sailings therefor reducing crew costs, the crew/passenger ratio will come down. The large crew on Pont Aven can't be efficient when she's half full, although this argument holds as true if she moves to St. Malo year round.

The lane meters on Pont Aven may be 3500, but that includes the mezzanine which isn't usable for freight, so the freight lane meters will increase when all three E Flexers are in service. Galicia will have 3100m, the same as Stena Estrid, the upper car garage isn't included in the total. The reduction for Salamanca & Santona to 2500m is due I believe to the LNG fueling system.

All the above leads me to think that if BF can't fund Bretagne 2, Cork - Roscoff will be sacrificed once the E Flexers are in service. On the basis that this route is more expendable than Portsmouth - St. Malo. Plus revenue to Spain will be up, mainly through increased freight, revenue to St. Malo will be up thanks to Pont Aven's larger capacity, Bretagne sells out very quickly over summer. And there'll be no need for shore staff in Cork for one sailing per week.

Of course BF may surprise us and run 3 sailings a week ex Cork using Bretagne or Cap Finistere.

Nick you were discussing just using the 3 E-flexers, I don't see where the 7000 berths sailing to Spain come from?

There's a total of 2781 in three E- Flexers whereas currently there are 3726 in PA, CF & BDS.

Using the current timetables and ships that's 8294 berths heading in one direction to Spain every week. An E-Flexer can't do three sailings per week to Spain, it's a 60 hour round trip for them so they'll probably do two each... six sailing a week to Spain is 5562 berths.

In terms of lane metres... and after more sifting, Pont Aven has 1570 lm's for freight. Again using the current timetables and crucially including Pelican, BF have a weekly total of 16520 lm's for freight heading south, just using the E-Flexers in their revised configuration gives them 16000.

If we get our heads together, we'll get there in the end!

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42 minutes ago, jonno said:

Nick you were discussing just using the 3 E-flexers, I don't see where the 7000 berths sailing to Spain come from?

There's a total of 2781 in three E- Flexers whereas currently there are 3726 in PA, CF & BDS.

Using the current timetables and ships that's 8294 berths heading in one direction to Spain every week. An E-Flexer can't do three sailings per week to Spain, it's a 60 hour round trip for them so they'll probably do two each... six sailing a week to Spain is 5562 berths.

In terms of lane metres... and after more sifting, Pont Aven has 1570 lm's for freight. Again using the current timetables and crucially including Pelican, BF have a weekly total of 16520 lm's for freight heading south, just using the E-Flexers in their revised configuration gives them 16000.

If we get our heads together, we'll get there in the end!

I get 7000 berths by having a service every day, which is possible with each E Flexer completing a return trip in three days, albeit without a trip to France.

The question i'd pose is, if BF run 6 or 7 services per week with the E Flexers plus another two from Pont Aven wouldn't this be too much capacity for the Spanish market.

 

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Depends on how much scope there is for expansion on the Spanish routes.  The ships often sail pretty much full, so I don’t know to what extent existing provision is able to cater for the demand for it.

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44 minutes ago, nick hall said:

I get 7000 berths by having a service every day, which is possible with each E Flexer completing a return trip in three days, albeit without a trip to France.

The question i'd pose is, if BF run 6 or 7 services per week with the E Flexers plus another two from Pont Aven wouldn't this be too much capacity for the Spanish market.

 

The Spanish are expecting a large increase in demand due to the oft' mentioned (by me) pressure France are under to get HGV's off the roads heading north. The EU want them heading to Bilbao & Santander, Gijon will also have a role to play as Balearia will begin services to St Nazaire in 2021.

BF's figures for Santander to Cork might be poor hence the move but they're being patient as due to above mentioned pending traffic restrictions far fewer trucks from Spain, Portugal & Africa will use the landbridge from the French channel ports, they'll sail direct to Ireland and the U.K. 

The deadline for all of this is 2025.

My head tells me that another E-Flexer is on the cards for Rosslare to replace Connemara and that the Cap will do the Portsmouth, Spain, Le Havre rotation currently performed by Baie du Seine She's the only vessel of a similar spec and usable length to fit the linkspan in France..

Edited by jonno
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Just now, jonno said:

The Spanish are expecting a large increase in demand due to the oft' mentioned (by me) pressure France are under to get HGV's off the roads heading north. The EU want them heading to Bilbao & Santander, Gijon will also have a role to play as Balearia will begin services to St Nazaire in 2021.

BF's figures for Santander to Cork might be poor hence the move but they're being patient as due to above mentioned pending traffic restrictions far fewer trucks from Spain, Portugal & Africa will use the landbridge from the French channel ports, they'll sail direct to Ireland and the U.K. 

The deadline for all of this is 2025.

 

Extremely interesting and elucidating hypothesis @jonno.

Certainly helps explains BF's recent investments despite Brexit uncertainty.

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12 hours ago, David Williams said:

I would have thought that BF would have learnt the lesson re customised designs from European shipyards, Logically they should go for an eflexer of the correct length and start running a proper business independent of the wishes of the ship financiers (be they regions or European subsidies !)

 

But is that not the whole charm of BF?

Up until now, they have eschewed boring cookie-cutter-off-shelf builds but instead commissioned custom ships which are a little different.  This sort of thinking was the genesis of MV Bretagne after all...

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Due to Storm Ciara the Bretagne made an unusual signt berthed stern-in at Portsmouth over the past couple of days.

BR 10-02-20.jpg

BR 09-02-20.jpg

BR2 10-02-20.jpg

 

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Can`t see the backspring causing that. Instead it looks like there are some sort of scuppers just above the rust line releasing water down the side of the vessel..In the old days the Mate and the Bosun would have had a platform and 2 sailors over the side putting it to rights 😂

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Yes, I was looking at the rust stain in the other photo. When a ship gets to this age the rust is always present waiting to break through I guess.

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Rust getting out from the foredeck, layers of paint covering corrosion, washed through the scuppers from some significant quantities of salt water over the bow these last few days.

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