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Please remember - this thread can get a bit heated at times... try to keep politics out of it, and be respectful to the views of others.

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We've a young crowd in here today!

It will be pasta and rice next, how have they got through the stockpiles from March?

Thanks everyone! 5 hours in theatre, all done. They misrouted the catheter and can't get a new one in. Pray I manage to pee before 10pm or the stick a pronged tube through my stomach.

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No, refuse to.  I don’t trust it, simple.  I am scanning the q codes in Starbucks and where I need to so only that organisation needs it in case.  I know several people who have it and have had issues with it pinging at them for no reason.  I just do not trust anything this particular Government tells us to install on our devices, end of.  I am too suspicious of it.

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31 minutes ago, rogerpatenall said:

Yes. (and believe me, if I've done it, it must be simple and straightforward, and it takes just a few seconds to be up and running.) And, going back to B's point about signing in - it includes a very simple to use QR reader.

Can it be used to trace how long my wife loitered in the shoe shop last night? Cabin-girl claimed she was only going to Leclerc but took an inordinately long time just to buy milk and bananas. Ed.

 

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7 minutes ago, Khaines said:

I just do not trust anything this particular Government tells us to install

That's a political comment, if I'm not mistaken. Would an alternative government provide more confidence? Ed. 

Edited by Cabin-boy
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2 hours ago, nick hall said:

Anyone downloaded the latest test & trace app?

Downloaded the app yesterday, easy peasey. We went to small local pub in the afternoon to meet 2 friends. We had to wait outside until let in by the Landlord who asked if we had the app if not please sign in, Like myself the landlord was amazed that at least 50% of the customers used the app to scan the QR. Seems secure to me. 

Edited by colinschandler
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2 hours ago, Khaines said:

 I just do not trust anything this particular Government tells us to install on our devices, end of.  I am too suspicious of it.

I can understand that but don't understand your antipathy to the NHS app. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the government had no access to the data. My understanding is the whole reasoning behind the new NHS app was that the government didn't control it and all the data collected never leaves your own phone and is automatically deleted after 30 days. I'm not sure I understand why anyone would have a problem with that.

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58 minutes ago, Rattler43 said:

I can understand that but don't understand your antipathy to the NHS app. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the government had no access to the data. My understanding is the whole reasoning behind the new NHS app was that the government didn't control it and all the data collected never leaves your own phone and is automatically deleted after 30 days. I'm not sure I understand why anyone would have a problem with that.

And what's the bet that if the app allowed users to also check payment of, and apply for, any benefits they were entitled to then it would be big success and we'd see a massive take-up? Ed. 

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6 minutes ago, mattofe7 said:

Sorry am I missing something. What has the claiming and monitored of benefit claims got to do with Covid virus or bfe?

Simply that if you are asked by the app to self-isolate then it would be a big advantage to be able to access your social-security account and check that any benefits you are entitled to during that 14-day period were being processed and paid correctly. So, it might encourage more people to use it.

As to its relevance to BFE it's just something that we are discussing, and have been for, what?, 6 months now in the absence of any ferries to travel on.

Ed. 

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16 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

There are always some bugs. You'd think they might have anticipated this one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54307526

It is not a bug but a feature.

1 hour ago, colinschandler said:

Like myself the landlord was amazed that at least 50% of the customers used the app to scan the QR. Seems secure to me. 

People will do anything to get what they want. A lot of people are in ignorant bliss, or self denial.

Look at the the number who use trust abusing services like Fakebook, Whatsup, Twatter, Instacrap, Linked Up etc. Let alone the other harms being caused but that is for another place. 

Or allowing various voice control devices, LIDAR scanners, cameras et al in to private lives.

Or connecting to public WiFi hotspots without knowing who they are and protection through VPNs etc.

Or use Google Chrome browser, something in the early days of the internet would have been classed as spyware. Legitimate company so it's ok.

Or just own a smart phone. especially any Android device. The largest advertising company in the world gets the consumer to buy their own monitoring devices. Genius. George Orwell would have been pleased. Almost every app will track you in some way.

3 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

And what's the bet that if the app allowed users to also check payment of, and apply for, any benefits they were entitled to then it would be big success and we'd see a massive take-up? Ed. 

Of course, anything in it for me.

A sizeable percentage have opted in to being continuously monitored for discount coupons ...

3 hours ago, Khaines said:

I just do not trust anything this particular Government tells us to install on our devices, end of.  I am too suspicious of it.

In this case, the lack of trust over COVID is so high in the UK, that the initial source code has been published on Github if you want to examine it. There is some disquiet over the algorithm methodology but it is a fairly straightforward, know what you are getting app.

 

Depending on which side of the of the coin you are, helpful data collection is being expanded continuously or privacy is being eroded continuously .

It is the unintended or abuse of trust that is the issue. 

Make a rational knowledge based transaction - privacy / my data for what ? - and be happy to give some / all privacy up in return for perceived rewards, dopamine hits etc. Is it worth it?

 

image.png.7726574152daa8ed84685a33c20d7ad9.png 

 

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4 minutes ago, Shipping Forecast said:

Twatter

Sign me up, right now! 

5 minutes ago, Shipping Forecast said:

Almost every app will track you in some way.

And if you don't read the legal stuff before clicking 'accept' then you can hardly complain later. 

 

6 minutes ago, Shipping Forecast said:

Of course, anything in it for me.

A sizeable percentage have opted in to being continuously monitored for discount coupons ...

My point exactly. Carrot and stick. Or 'stay at home and we'll give you five hundred quid'. 

Ed

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If we didn't want to be monitored no one would ever use a debit/credit card in a supermarket. They are able to and do log the area where you live, they can work out your disposable income using statistical data based on the percentage  of income regionally spent on food, clothing, DIY etc, what your favorite breakfast cereal is, whether you are a Marmite lover or prefer Bovril etc etc. You would never buy anything on line to avoid being bombarded by advertisers.

Neither would you use a mobile phone; your network effectively tracks your every move from the triangulation of the masts you have connected to. Hence a number of members of the criminal fraternity who have been brought to justice.

These days I'm afraid you either have to accept the total lack of privacy or become a hermit living off grid

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1 hour ago, Cabin-boy said:

Simply that if you are asked by the app to self-isolate then it would be a big advantage to be able to access your social-security account and check that any benefits you are entitled to during that 14-day period were being processed and paid correctly. So, it might encourage more people to use it.

As to its relevance to BFE it's just something that we are discussing, and have been for, what?, 6 months now in the absence of any ferries to travel on.

Ed. 

Clearly I'm missing your logic on both counts.  Not sure why you need to sign up to an app that is there to assist in the control of a virus to be able to check what benefits you may be entitled to or have received or may want to claim.  Unless you think people who are self isolating have so much time on their hands that it would be something to keep them occupied/entertained over 14 days.  I can think of more fun things to do over 14 days that monitor my social security account.  And we've been talking about covid and Brittany Ferries for months - not covid and its abilityto aid the claiming of benefits.

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There is a trade to be had (some/most/total), but should the individual be able to make the choice of what to trade or it be determined for you without your say so or knowledge? Should the supermarket be able to sell your information to Facebook or another unknown source without your knowledge?

How secure is that data? Who has access? What happens to the data if the company gets sold etc?

And then do you want some private entity or government to start joining dots for whatever ends, like China's Social Credit System? Banned from ferry travel 😱, blocked on twitter ...

 

As a positive, you can check you own email for potential data breaches at sites like https://haveibeenpwned.com (pronounced poned)

It will show whether the email addresses you login with has been involved in reported data breeches and what information has potentially been stolen.

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1 hour ago, Shipping Forecast said:

There is a trade to be had (some/most/total), but should the individual be able to make the choice of what to trade or it be determined for you without your say so or knowledge? Should the supermarket be able to sell your information to Facebook or another unknown source without your knowledge?

How secure is that data? Who has access? What happens to the data if the company gets sold etc?

And then do you want some private entity or government to start joining dots for whatever ends, like China's Social Credit System? Banned from ferry travel 😱, blocked on twitter ...

 

As a positive, you can check you own email for potential data breaches at sites like https://haveibeenpwned.com (pronounced poned)

It will show whether the email addresses you login with has been involved in reported data breeches and what information has potentially been stolen.

Do you have to accept cookies to access? 

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2 hours ago, mattofe7 said:

Clearly I'm missing your logic on both counts.  Not sure why you need to sign up to an app that is there to assist in the control of a virus to be able to check what benefits you may be entitled to or have received or may want to claim.  Unless you think people who are self isolating have so much time on their hands that it would be something to keep them occupied/entertained over 14 days.  I can think of more fun things to do over 14 days that monitor my social security account.  And we've been talking about covid and Brittany Ferries for months - not covid and its abilityto aid the claiming of benefits.

Let's take the second point first, shall we? 

We've been talking about COVID and every related topic that comes up. Today that shifted to suspicions raised about the new contact tracing app and I suggested adding functionality to the software by linking it to the benefits system.

So to move on the the first point, it all depends on what the app is aiming to achieve. The current objective is to enable anyone to be informed if they are judged to be a close contact of a person who subsequently tests positive for the virus and to then receive a recommendation to self-isolate.

The descison to follow that advice is at the discretion of the contact and they need to decide if their contact was really close (inside a closed space at less than a metre for more than 15 minutes without a mask - which is what the French are using as the definition) or outside in the fresh air and with masks on.

Obviously, some people on low incomes might not wish to self-isolate if they are in the first group and fear a loss of income. To encourage compliance, the UK government last week suggested giving such people a one-off payment (a benefit by a different name) of £500. My logic is that if the app was tied to the benefits system then it would allow people to register for the help directly, claim any other assistance they need and allow the government to better manage the tracing of secondary contacts.

Obviously the idea solution would be that the app also geo-locates the contact (and claimant) to ensure they remain at home for the full two weeks and then makes the payment if they follow the rules. Clearly that doesn't prevent people from going out of the house and leaving their phone behind but if it was linked to bank account details (for the payment) then there would also be the possibility of checking whether that bank account/card was used in shops or petrol stations etc, suggesting a possible breach of the rules.

In terms of people having time to monitor their account, if everything was integrated then it wouldn't take long to simply check, update and confirm your status when prompted by the system. 

Ed

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15 minutes ago, IanN said:

Do you have to accept cookies to access? 

It is safe to accept haveibeenpwned.com cookies. The raison d'etre of the site is to help people find breeches, being set up by web security guy Troy Hunt in 2013. It is used by many organisations, universities etc to check for breeches.

Details

haveibeenpwned.com connects to 3 domains - itself, Cloudflare for CDN / protection and Google analytics.

It has 3 scripts that run on the page - itself, Cloudflare and Google for analytics. It doesn't need the Google script to run so you can block that if you want to.

HTH.

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16 minutes ago, IanN said:

Do you have to accept cookies to access? 

I should add that Cookies are really downgraded now since they are being stopped, blocked and can be altered easily.

Most websites use scripts, pixels, canvas fingerprinting to identify you now completely bypassing cookies.

If you want to follow Alice into the rabbit hole on this, have a look at https://amiunique.org and click on "View my browser fingerprint" button. This comes from Lille University (for French connection) research into this subject.

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7 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

 

And if you don't read the legal stuff before clicking 'accept' then you can hardly complain later.

Who has the time or legal understanding to read and comprehend 20 pages of legalese for every app, website and shop?

Certainly organisations are guilty of deliberately obscuring their terms and not boiling down the notable or important points. The best examples can be done in 5 or 6 plain English bullet points, but are sadly few and far between!

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On 26/09/2020 at 17:45, Cabin-boy said:

Let's take the second point first, shall we? 

We've been talking about COVID and every related topic that comes up. Today that shifted to suspicions raised about the new contact tracing app and I suggested adding functionality to the software by linking it to the benefits system.

So to move on the the first point, it all depends on what the app is aiming to achieve. The current objective is to enable anyone to be informed if they are judged to be a close contact of a person who subsequently tests positive for the virus and to then receive a recommendation to self-isolate.

The descison to follow that advice is at the discretion of the contact and they need to decide if their contact was really close (inside a closed space at less than a metre for more than 15 minutes without a mask - which is what the French are using as the definition) or outside in the fresh air and with masks on.

Obviously, some people on low incomes might not wish to self-isolate if they are in the first group and fear a loss of income. To encourage compliance, the UK government last week suggested giving such people a one-off payment (a benefit by a different name) of £500. My logic is that if the app was tied to the benefits system then it would allow people to register for the help directly, claim any other assistance they need and allow the government to better manage the tracing of secondary contacts.

Obviously the idea solution would be that the app also geo-locates the contact (and claimant) to ensure they remain at home for the full two weeks and then makes the payment if they follow the rules. Clearly that doesn't prevent people from going out of the house and leaving their phone behind but if it was linked to bank account details (for the payment) then there would also be the possibility of checking whether that bank account/card was used in shops or petrol stations etc, suggesting a possible breach of the rules.

In terms of people having time to monitor their account, if everything was integrated then it wouldn't take long to simply check, update and confirm your status when prompted by the system. 

Ed

Unfortunately, in a nutshell, government IT is not particularly integrated - and whilst in theory lots could be done, the cost of doing so would make your eyes water let alone a huge number of ethical and regulatory hurdles.

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