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Please remember - this thread can get a bit heated at times... try to keep politics out of it, and be respectful to the views of others.

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Sure, let's all whinge about the "confinement" as we hit record numbers of new infections (over 60,000 yesterday), as the hospitals fill up and ICU beds run out. All pull together eh?

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We've a young crowd in here today!

It will be pasta and rice next, how have they got through the stockpiles from March?

The Corona virus hit Roscoff overnight, several victims in a critical state.....ūü§™ Chris

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If this mink-related strain of Covid has symptoms that include soft white fur, small beady eyes and a look of abject fear that everyone is out to kill you then I'd give Boris a test ASAP.

Ed

 

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15 hours ago, Shipping Forecast said:

First, you cannot stop at masks, it would have to include many other aspects as well which means starting to legislate for every aspect of people's lives.

Legal remedies work well for well defined specific activities like driving or for enforcing societal agreed acts like theft, murder etc. However for legislating for lifestyle there are too many edge cases otherwise we end up with absurdities which will never be adhered to.

We also end up in the situation where rules are constantly changing, people start not to care, becoming resentful leading to less compliance, which then leads to more legislation and start of the the slippery slope. Have you seen the Manchester University fence scenes?

So again, how about personal responsibility instead of dictate? None of this is rocket science. Might actually get people using some mental muscle. No they are not going to get it perfect every time, but exercising their brains might make them think about other scenarios and bring about real change?

And if in doubt, use protection ... not hard is it.

Lol. So you aren't in favour of mandating mask standards then?

I'm really not sure what you are advocating that is different from the status quo? Unless you have some kind of scheme to get people to take more personal responsibility (if you have, you will be a rich man!)

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1 hour ago, Cabin-boy said:

And then there will be some difficult questions for those in power to answer.

There are what would be deemed 'class actions' starting in the UK too.

Even a University Law professors . doctors think there are cases to answer.

Can of worms.

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40 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

Lol. So you aren't in favour of mandating mask standards then?

I'm really not sure what you are advocating that is different from the status quo? Unless you have some kind of scheme to get people to take more personal responsibility (if you have, you will be a rich man!)

To be clear, mask standard are there, just not implemented properly. There are laws in place that already detail wearing of masks with fines.

As I have said many times, it is all very well having masks, PPE etc but if it is not implemented seriously then it is a half arsed attempt and then people can't work why it is not effective. I think it was suggested that proper implementation was North Korean, although the lockdown isn't apparently. 

Here is an example I wasn't going to give but will now.

This week when I had to visit a hospital (not medical). In the reception, with prominent "This is a COVID hotspot" notices, a man came in without a mask, was asked to take one from the pile, and then begrudgingly 'put on' to became a chin sling. The receptionists (who must go on special curmudgeonly training), just sat there muttering under their breathe about it, but did nothing. A least two other staff passed him without saying anything. Ironically he choose to stand waiting near a COVID Hot Spot sign. If a hospital of all places, is not going to enforce any rules, then what does any law matter? 

And no, he was not exempt otherwise he would not have taken a mask or mentioned it to the person who asked him to take a mask. Just a grumpy white van delivery driver as he was forced to wait.

In case anyone is interested, it took a hospital visitor to tell him how unthinking / selfish he was being, for him to reluctantly convert from chin sling into just about mask wearing.

Laws don't mean compliance, and laws don't mean it the best course of action.

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There is an unconfirmed report round here of two men who went into a village bakery without masks last weekend and were served by the employee worker who didn't make a fuss. They left and came back 10 minutes later, with masks and their warrent cards and slapped the shop with a fine for breaking the rules. I have no reason to doubt the report but am waiting for confirmation. If true then public trust in the law enforcement agencies is going to take a hit, I think. 

Ed

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3 hours ago, Shipping Forecast said:

This week when I had to visit a hospital (not medical). In the reception, with prominent "This is a COVID hotspot" notices, a man came in without a mask, was asked to take one from the pile, and then begrudgingly 'put on' to became a chin sling.

As a follow up to this, on returning back to the hospital today, both receptions now have COVID Protection Personnel on duty making sure everyone complied with the rules when entering and leaving the hospital.

I spoke to one of the COVID guys on duty, who said it was hard, the vast majority complied but had quite a few non compliant people who resisted almost to the point of being asked to leave.

Going through the building I also noticed quite a few of the medical staff had the nose band section of the mask taped to the bridge of their nose.

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3 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

There is an unconfirmed report round here of two men who went into a village bakery without masks last weekend and were served by the employee worker who didn't make a fuss. They left and came back 10 minutes later, with masks and their warrent cards and slapped the shop with a fine for breaking the rules. I have no reason to doubt the report but am waiting for confirmation. If true then public trust in the law enforcement agencies is going to take a hit, I think. 

Ed

Although it seems like entrapment based on your unconfirmed report it may make shop owners think. The down side is if you are a middle aged shop owner and somebody built like a brick s**** house does not wear a mask you could  put yourself at risk if you refuse to serve them

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4 hours ago, Shipping Forecast said:

To be clear, mask standard are there, just not implemented properly. There are laws in place that already detail wearing of masks with fines.

Indeed they are. I was just wondering what, if any updates, you were wanting. Was it simply to mandate that a single design of clinical grade masks should be worn?

4 hours ago, Shipping Forecast said:

As I have said many times, it is all very well having masks, PPE etc but if it is not implemented seriously then it is a half arsed attempt and then people can't work why it is not effective. I think it was suggested that proper implementation was North Korean, although the lockdown isn't apparently. 

No, it was the issuing of a single "standard" mask that was described as such (and in a light hearted manor).  I don't think I've commented on the current movement restrictions (or "lockdown", if you prefer)

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19 minutes ago, IanN said:

Although it seems like entrapment based on your unconfirmed report it may make shop owners think. The down side is if you are a middle aged shop owner and somebody built like a brick s**** house does not wear a mask you could  put yourself at risk if you refuse to serve them

You would hope that a request would be sufficient to comply with the law - putting yourself at immediate physical risk shouldn't be required. 

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3 hours ago, VikingVoyager said:

No, it was the issuing of a single "standard" mask that was described as such (and in a light hearted manor).  I don't think I've commented on the current movement restrictions (or "lockdown", if you prefer)

Who knows what to call the current situation?¬†Judging by the streets in the local town on the way back,¬†movement restrictions¬†or lockdown¬†wouldn‚Äôt seem to apply. There were a lot of people ‚Äėexercising‚Äô together. The¬†local roads almost as busy as recent normal too.

Talking of protective masks, some of the staff in the hospital were wearing the space suit style head gear today (all over white helmets with clear plastic face ‚Äėvisor‚Äô).¬†Print NASA or Roscosmos¬†on the side and I could see a lot of space cadets (either variety) opting for those, pandemic or no pandemic.

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On 07/11/2020 at 21:48, Shipping Forecast said:

Who knows what to call the current situation?¬†Judging by the streets in the local town on the way back,¬†movement restrictions¬†or lockdown¬†wouldn‚Äôt seem to apply. There were a lot of people ‚Äėexercising‚Äô together. The¬†local roads almost as busy as recent normal too.

It's very encouraging to see people exercising isn't it? Roads here are a little quieter but still busy - hardly surprising given the kids are at school, people are still working and use of public transport is discouraged.

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1 hour ago, VikingVoyager said:

It's very encouraging to see people exercising isn't it? Roads here are a little quieter but still busy - hardly surprising given the kids are at school, people are still working and use of public transport is discouraged.

I noticed the same here this morning. A lot of parents seemed to be dropping their kids off and probably then weighed up the options of doing two return trips in the day or heading to the office, despite dire warnings from the President and his minions to not do so, and decided 'Sod it! I'll go to my office'.

On the subject of President Plonker, he has today made a pilgrimage to the church where Charles de Gaulle is burried (the tomb being easily identifiable by the fact the lid is still proped up by his excessively long nose) to commemorate the 50th anniversary of his death. Another unnecessary trip, putting more people at risk of contact. If he won't do what he preaches then how on earth does he expect us, mere peasants, to do the same.

Ed

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1 hour ago, Cabin-boy said:

If he won't do what he preaches then how on earth does he expect us, mere peasants, to do the same.

Our PM welcomes any chance to hide away from the public - all he needs is a handy fridge to hide in

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I saw this article this morning. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-54879756

How does the app know if you are wearing a mask or not? 

I believe the WHO guidance says you are a close contact if you spend 15 minutes or more without a mask at less than 1 metre with an infected person. 

In this type of case is it likely that both the infected person and contact scanned QR codes at a restaurant and that way the app knows they wouldn't have been wearing masks?

Ed

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Masks are not relevant to app. There are two ways to reach an app notification, closeness or location. From earlier the app basically works as 

On 29/09/2020 at 14:54, Shipping Forecast said:

It relies on Bluetooth to work so no mobile / WiFi networks involved in actual recording. The app via Bluetooth handshakes with all the other apps around it exchanging anonymous IDs. It then measures the time you are in contact with that ID and approximate distance. Every 5 minutes it detects you are in range of of the other ID it awards points.

Approximately the points structure for every 5 minutes in contact is

0 to 2 m - 300 points
2 to 4m - 150 points
Over 4 metres - nil points

If it totals 900 or more points in a 24 hour period then the other ID goes on the 'keep an eye on' list. Otherwise the ID is supposed to be ignored. I believe it has been tweaked now to attempt to take into account when someone would likely be most infectious but the actual algorithm is being honed all the time.

If one of the IDs reports via the app of having COVID symptoms or a positive test, then this is communicated to the network and everyone with enough points wins the stay at home lockdown prize. Doing it this way keeps data local, helps protect privacy and minimises the data flying around clogging up the networks.

The location signing in part works slightly differently, as each sign in is recorded in the app with time of visit, and if the location becomes a source of outbreak, then the app gets a notification and tells you if with a defined time period.

Some slight changes in scoring (as mentioned above) since writing, since still working on algorithm, partially to account for mask wearing, but if you want as many people to isolate then discount masks as much as possible.

If they were not together when the meeting happens, and his was triggered by a positive test or location alert, then unless he says he has symptoms or a positive test hers won’t trigger. And potentially living apart, Weston Super Mare and London, then very likely for one not the other to trigger.

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The app is now supposed to (as long as you have the latest version) tell you what to do.¬†It was fixed for better and less confusing¬†notifications, in part caused by the device's privacy and notification¬†settings. ūü§¶‚Äć‚ôāÔłŹ

ūü§Ē, we are going to make an app for devices almost every single person has, and not know how it works properly and send confusing messages¬†- who did they contract for this, the App Newbie Software Company with no people experience?

To be fair, this was the second attempt so you have to make allowances. 

To follow up on long discussions, since most masks are only partially effective, then to be safe wearing a mask should be ignored.

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Well that all seems very unsatisfactory. I can't see why you would not be wearing a mask unless within your house or private vehicle and you know those people you are with. If you keep your mask on when out in public at all times then there should be no risk of contamination - even if there is some doubt about their efficiency. Ed. 

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The app has different rules for what a contact is, however it is anonymous, you can turn off contact tracing and you do not have to obey what it says. The app does not know about masks or Perspex screens,

However the app is very useful for checking into a restaurant.

You either leave your contact details in an insecure fashion and risk that someone who was not even on the same floor of the restaurant or attending at the same time had the virus and by law you must stay home for 14 days or you can scan the code with the app, display the green tick and then practice social distancing.

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