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Please remember - this thread can get a bit heated at times... try to keep politics out of it, and be respectful to the views of others.

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2 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

OK, we'll drop the government criticism, at least until they next do something dumb. I'll be back, of that I'm sure. 

Ed

A party political broadcast again trying to indoctrinate members with your interpretation of events in France.

There is hope with Covid with regard to the vacines that are becoming available. Next year should bring some hope instead of fear and blame.

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It will be pasta and rice next, how have they got through the stockpiles from March?

We've a young crowd in here today!

Thanks for asking @jonno No change I’m afraid, felt a little better yesterday but a little worse today. Trying to rest as much as possible. Think the missus is on the mend though, she’s now

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1 hour ago, IanN said:

This is a scary move.

1) Will the French public stand for it.

2) Surely it's not enforceable.

 

There have been protests against the measures this morning and the government has added some clauses to the original text to try and make it more palatable. I believe that now any film taken must reveal neither the identity of an officer nor their address. 

As to making it enforceable, I'm not sure how they intend to proceed. All I do know is that the money pumped into security cameras and facial-recognition software will need paying for somehow so they are likely to impose fines as usual. 

Ed

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1 hour ago, colin said:

So Darmanin is guilty?

I'm pretty sure I didn't write that. In fact, I know I didn't write it. The presumption of innocence still exists in France (for now at least) as far as I'm aware. However, I don't think I'd leave a suspected car thief in charge of my multi-euro collection of Playmobil Porsche cars until I was wholly sure of his innocence?

Ed

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Ed, take your attacks to HM Gov and see how many are left standing ...

But. Perhaps, despite the "hands off" nature of where this thread lives, perhaps we should try to concentrate on the topic?

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7 minutes ago, colin said:

Ed, take your attacks to HM Gov and see how many are left standing ...

But. Perhaps, despite the "hands off" nature of where this thread lives, perhaps we should try to concentrate on the topic?

True, there is some virus going around that we were talking about a couple of weeks ago. 

Canin-girl went to the market this morning and forgot to take an 'attestation' with her. There were apparently lots of police in town making sure nobody got too close to each other at the stalls but not checking any papers. 

Ed

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Generally the same here. Areas of concern being policed visibly but leniency to the politely forgetful.

Somewhat disappointed that our Super U stopped the non stop sanitising of trolleys after the first wave and have not returned to it. No effort to sanitise credit card machines at checkouts either. I use gel and spray on anything I touch outside of home. My physio is very serious and sensible about sanitising and avoiding people being close, other than her torturing me. Mask wearing still a bit hit and miss. More youngsters seem to be switched on now, when alone or not in large groups. Older recalcitrants still often in the below the nose nonsense.

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They've got rid of at least 50% of the trolleys here to ensure there are no more than 400 customers at any one time in the supermarket. I hear the space limit per person will increase from 4 to 8 square metres next week if other shops are allowed to reopen.

Ed

 

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5 hours ago, colin said:

Ed, take your attacks to HM Gov and see how many are left standing ...

UK politicians or BFE members? I didn't think we were allowed to do that.

Edited by Rattler43
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OOI for the 72 hours before arriving test rule for Spain, this is from their neighbour on the Iberian peninsula.

Portugal Appeals Court Ruling 11/11/2020

"An appeals court in Portugal has ruled that the PCR process is not a reliable test for Sars-Cov-2, and therefore any enforced quarantine based on those test results is unlawful. Most importantly, the judges ruled that a single positive PCR test cannot be used as an effective diagnosis of infection.

Further, the ruling suggested that any forced quarantine applied to healthy people could be a violation of their fundamental right to liberty.

The specifics of the case concern four tourists entering the country from Germany – all of whom are anonymous in the transcript of the case – who were quarantined by the regional health authority. Of the four, only one had tested positive for the virus, whilst the other three were deemed simply of “high infection risk” based on proximity to the positive individual. All four had, in the previous 72 hours, tested negative for the virus before departing from Germany.

In their ruling, judges Margarida Ramos de Almeida and Ana Paramés referred to several scientific studies. Most notably this study by Jaafar et al., which found that – when running PCR tests with 35 cycles or more – the accuracy dropped to 3%, meaning up to 97% of positive results could be false positives.

The ruling goes on to conclude that, based on the science they read, any PCR test using over 25 cycles is totally unreliable. Governments and private labs have been very tight-lipped about the exact number of cycles they run when PCR testing, but it is known to sometimes be as high as 45. Even the U.S. head of the Coronavirus Task Force Anthony Fauci has publicly stated anything over 35 is totally unusable."

Will anyone challenge the Spanish / EU 72 hours rules?

 

Text is extract from piece I was sent minus intro and what does this mean waffling postlude. Emphasis mine.

Google translation of ruling - http://www.dgsi.pt/jtrl.nsf/33182fc732316039802565fa00497eec/79d6ba338dcbe5e28025861f003e7b30

Jaafar Paper - OUP Published 28/09/2020 - https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa1491/5912603 for those who need some light bedtime reading.

Just to be clear and before anyone questions it, I am not doubting that PCR works, but the number of PCR cycles used is a known issue. If having a PCR test ask for the number of cycles (Ct), positive or negative as false indication in both directions has consequences.

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On 20/11/2020 at 20:25, Cabin-boy said:

I know he was elected not because the French public trusted him to really keep the promises offered but because he was not Marine Le Pen.

I'm no expert on French politics, but didn't he have to beat several other "not Marin Le Pens" to get the chance to beat the actual Marine Le Pen, and weren't they backed by the established parties?

Edited by VikingVoyager
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On 20/11/2020 at 20:25, Cabin-boy said:

How will they get the numbers down, keep them down, allow the freedom we had in the summer to return,

Those appear to be mutually exclusive goals without something new in the mix. Have you got something?

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7 hours ago, VikingVoyager said:

I'm no expert on French politics, but didn't he have to beat several other "not Marin Le Pens" to get the chance to beat the actual Marine Le Pen, and weren't they backed by the established parties?

He did beat several other candidates to get to the second round, but not but much. All the results are here if you want to take a look.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_French_presidential_election&ved=2ahUKEwi30rXNkJntAhVRxhoKHYI4DLUQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0PnMLka8lQv0qGfMfNt5Ae&cshid=1606150933246

7 hours ago, VikingVoyager said:

 

The big problem in the French system is that people are forced to vote for someone they dislike in the second round to prevent someone they hate from winning. Think of it along the lines of 'Would you rather have a severe flu or a mild Covid?'.

If Melenchon had got through instead of Le Pen the outcome could have been very different. Or Fillon instead of Macron. 

Ed. 

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7 hours ago, VikingVoyager said:

Those appear to be mutually exclusive goals without something new in the mix. Have you got something?

The doctors at the hospital here are very clear that keeping restaurants and bars closed to casual and professional customers is the key. Anywhere people don't wear a mask is a major risk. They are split on the idea of reopening the universities after Christmas as it's clearly impossible to prevent the students meeting up outside of class and having private parties. Tourism could restart with hotels serving food to family groups (and that might be possible for other restaurants too if proof is shown that all the diners are from the same household) and the entertainment and leisure industries should be able to restart safely. 

We'll see what Macron announces tomorrow evening. 

Ed

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5 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

So you'll be hoping for less freedom than you had in the summer?

Not at a personal level particularly as I'm prepared to forego dining out with friends or inviting friends round for now if necessary. But I feel that holidaying with my family should be feasible (in the summer we didn't feel in any particular danger) and allowing the children to restart their sporting activities is very important. Ed. 

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14 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

Not at a personal level particularly as I'm prepared to forego dining out with friends or inviting friends round for now if necessary. But I feel that holidaying with my family should be feasible (in the summer we didn't feel in any particular danger) and allowing the children to restart their sporting activities is very important. Ed. 

Pretty much my sentiments. Brownies, running, swimming and karate had just got going.

Is it fair to say that you think your government is swinging erratically from one extreme to the other?

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6 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

Is it fair to say that you think your government is swinging erratically from one extreme to the other?

Not anymore as they have simply cracked down on everything. And they have clearly stated they won't be making the same mistakes as in June. Just different ones presumably! The problem is that they fundamentally distrust the population when it comes to behaving sensibly (perhaps that why Macron got elected 4 years ago) but their heavy-handedness may have made them more enemies than friends. When you start telling people they can't buy clothes and shoes in a supermarket that is still selling caviar, fois gras and champagne you are on a slippery slope.

Ed

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23 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

Not anymore as they have simply cracked down on everything. And they have clearly stated they won't be making the same mistakes as in June. Just different ones presumably! The problem is that they fundamentally distrust the population when it comes to behaving sensibly (perhaps that why Macron got elected 4 years ago) but their heavy-handedness may have made them more enemies than friends. When you start telling people they can't buy clothes and shoes in a supermarket that is still selling caviar, fois gras and champagne you are on a slippery slope.

Ed

That was what I meant - the changes from the summer to now. Our government is guilty of the same approach.  Far simpler to state that you think they have swung too far from where they were though, in my opinion.

Of course, at least the French get to choose their Head of State. I'd swap Macron for our detestable leader any day of the week.

Personally, I think efforts to protect retailers that had to close while their competitors stayed open were a good idea.

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4 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

Personally, I think efforts to protect retailers that had to close while their competitors stayed open were a good idea.

I think that depends on the category of shop concerned. Clothes and shoes will have lost out to the second-hand market (Leboncoin and Vinted) but less to the online competition, I suspect. However, people will have bought plenty of books and entertainment/toys from Amazon etc and won't necessarily need to go to those shops in the coming weeks. Ed. 

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