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Please remember - this thread can get a bit heated at times... try to keep politics out of it, and be respectful to the views of others.

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3 hours ago, Khaines said:

What is getting my goat at the moment is the allowance of Extinction Rebellion gatherings in London, yet the Government want to crack down on gatherings of more than 30 people, an example being raves.  What difference is there in ER and raves.  Both attract large amounts of people with little social distancing, both from all over the country, taking their bugs back to their own neighbourhoods, yet it seems OK for ER.  Virus tell the difference can it?

Glasgow is even more bizarre. People can go to the pub or restaurants but can't visit immediate family.

 

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It will be pasta and rice next, how have they got through the stockpiles from March?

We've a young crowd in here today!

The Corona virus hit Roscoff overnight, several victims in a critical state.....🤪 Chris

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I forget who was asking about why any new quarantine restrictions come into force at 0400. It's because the government believes there are no planes/flights in the air at that time. Obviously didn't take ferries into account.

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7 hours ago, elaine80 said:

Glasgow is even more bizarre. People can go to the pub or restaurants but can't visit immediate family.

 

You are not suggesting that Nicola has made a bad call, are you? Isn't that one of the key signs of an impending apocalypse? Of course a plane load of tourists from Greece is far more dangerous than a pub-full of Friday-night Glaswegians! Ed. 

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3 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

You are not suggesting that Nicola has made a bad call, are you? Isn't that one of the key signs of an impending apocalypse? Of course a plane load of tourists from Greece is far more dangerous than a pub-full of Friday-night Glaswegians! Ed. 

The same call was made in Bradford

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15 hours ago, Khaines said:

What is getting my goat at the moment is the allowance of Extinction Rebellion gatherings in London, yet the Government want to crack down on gatherings of more than 30 people, an example being raves.  What difference is there in ER and raves.  Both attract large amounts of people with little social distancing, both from all over the country, taking their bugs back to their own neighbourhoods, yet it seems OK for ER.  Virus tell the difference can it?

I'm pretty sure this government would dearly love to ban any kind of protest so the explanation must be that, if they did so, the repercussions would be greater than allowing them to go ahead. Probably, part of the calculation is that the protesters alienate themselves from the general population and actually harm their cause. 

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46 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

I'm pretty sure this government would dearly love to ban any kind of protest so the explanation must be that, if they did so, the repercussions would be greater than allowing them to go ahead. Probably, part of the calculation is that the protesters alienate themselves from the general population and actually harm their cause. 

If you want to stop a large demonstration you have to have the police numbers and somewhere to hold those arrested. I don't think we have either.

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We had a yacht with an Extinction Rebellion flag on it approaching the cruise ships moored out in Poole Bay.  Wish the crew would have turned a fire hose on them or something.  ER really get on my nerves, nothing but pests and they do absolutely nothing to make me more aware of any environmental issues they are trying to draw attention to, they do the complete opposite.  Stupid fools do not seem to realise they are actually alienating those they want to listen to them. 

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This is what they want, to be arrested and to cause massive disruption by overrunning the police cells.  They want to disrupt the emergency services, and they want praise for it as well.

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3 minutes ago, Khaines said:

We had a yacht with an Extinction Rebellion flag on it approaching the cruise ships moored out in Poole Bay.  Wish the crew would have turned a fire hose on them or something.  ER really get on my nerves, nothing but pests and they do absolutely nothing to make me more aware of any environmental issues they are trying to draw attention to, they do the complete opposite.  Stupid fools do not seem to realise they are actually alienating those they want to listen to them. 

The protesters travel from all over the UK. I guess they don't walk so either use public transport or more likely their own cars, all adding to pollution. I suspect most ER are the regular protesters who jump on any protest band wagon.  You name it they will be there.

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I agree that ER can do harm with their approach but I can't agree with the idea that they are simply some kind of professional protest mob that really doesn't care about the issue.  I certainly think that they do have a valid point to make.

I suspect they are made up of a combination of the frustrated (that have been trying to raise awareness for decades), the new converts (shocked at how bad things are) and some anti-establishment types. Education and "carrot" measures have only made a relatively small impact in terms of action on climate change. I can fully understand why people feel more extreme measures are required to make governments act

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5 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

I agree that ER can do harm with their approach but I can't agree with the idea that they are simply some kind of professional protest mob that really doesn't care about the issue.

Quite, this idea that there's a group of all purpose rabble rousers out there is a bit of a trope which gives cover for not paying attention to what they are protesting about.

The ER protestors tend to be younger and thus have less political capital so demonstrating is often their only realistic outlet to get their point across in what they perceive to be a meaningful way. Just like the young in the past have done.

I'm not massively comfortable with large gatherings at the moment but it should be the gathering not the right to protest or indeed the message which I'd hope most would object to. A couple of them sailing past a couple of laid-up wannabe Typhoid Mary cruise ships on the other hand seems a totally harmless thing to do if it gets a message across.

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I fully support their voice that we need to investigate and reduce global warning and i am sure the founders were well meaning and passionate. .Unfortunately they are now demonstrating against the wrong administration. Even if the UK were to implement all of the XR plans and their aiiies such as adopting a plant based food system by banning animal farming and their other plans to reduce our generation of greenhouse gases to zero, it would have a negligible effect on the very real risks created by global warning. They are disrupting the normal life of UK at a time when we should be concentrating all resources to combat Covid 19.

The coal burning based power generation policies of USA and China and the mega pollution of the oceans by India  have several orders greater effect than cows passing wind. What we should all be doing globally is for the all of the other nations of the world to to put pressure on the USA and China but who have declared that they will do nothing if it would harm their  own economies. In 2019 USA and China produced around 40% of worldwide greenhouse gases between them with hundreds of coal fired power stations and the UK 1% now with only 3.

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3 hours ago, colinschandler said:

The protesters travel from all over the UK. I guess they don't walk so either use public transport or more likely their own cars, all adding to pollution. I suspect most ER are the regular protesters who jump on any protest band wagon.  You name it they will be there.

Which is exactly my opinion.  I have ER supporters amongst my friends list on Facebook, and they know jolly well that if they repeatedly spout ER nonsense on MY posts on MY timeline, and/or berate me for my anti ER views, they will be unfriended.  Have unfriended and blocked around four or five.  People are entitled to their opinions, but when an opinion becomes the sort of comments that are basically a lecture, then I will hit the unfriend button.  I found that a lot of my Remain friends are ER supporters and although that was my side of that vote, I have differing views on ER, which some remain friends have got funny with me about.  Hard life isn’t it..🙄

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10 minutes ago, colinschandler said:

I fully support their voice that we need to investigate and reduce global warning and i am sure the founders were well meaning and passionate. .Unfortunately they are now demonstrating against the wrong administration. Even if the UK were to implement all of the XR plans and their aiiies such as adopting a plant based food system by banning animal farming and their other plans to reduce our generation of greenhouse gases to zero, it would have a negligible effect on the very real risks created by global warning. They are disrupting the normal life of UK at a time when we should be concentrating all resources to combat Covid 19.

The coal burning based power generation policies of USA and China and the mega pollution of the oceans by India  have several orders greater effect than cows passing wind. What we should all be doing globally is for the all of the other nations of the world to to put pressure on the USA and China but who have declared that they will do nothing if it would harm their  own economies. In 2019 USA and China produced around 40% of worldwide greenhouse gases between them with hundreds of coal fired power stations and the UK 1% now with only 3.

It is the disruption that is my bugbear about them.  They are aiming at the wrong people, and we just do not need it, especially during a flipping pandemic, this will, I am afraid just P people off against them even more.  I do agree that there are rabble rousers amongst them who jump on any bandwagon going and it is those individuals who are the worst.  I have heard they were planning to hack the civil service - now what the heck for.  Also the way the talks with Brussels are going and the likelihood of us crashing out in December with all the chaos that will bring, why exactly do Extinction Rebellion think they are actually being a force for good with their actions.

Why don’t they go and do this in China and India?  Because they would suffer a lot more over there than they would here as a result and most want to get in their comfy cars with their top of the range mobiles and their nice middle class homes.  Seeing that a lot of ER are middle class professionals and individuals.

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Our government is entirely the correct one to be trying to influence. Individuals have little power, groups of individuals have more, governments have more still. There are still plenty more things which can and should be done in this country to make our future environment better.  Moreover the UK has been spewing out terrible emissions for decades (centuries) more than almost any other country so our legacy impact is huge compared to somewhere like China. We shouldn't just disclaim responsibility for that.

But in terms of influencing other countries, although they are poor at using it the UK, particularly when combined with other nations, still has great leverage when emissions and environmental standards are allied to trade talks. Holding our government to task and making sure those considerations are front and centre rather than an afterthought is where the true international power of protest comes in.

Making people's voices heard might lead to a bit of traffic inconvenience but what does that matter when the world is on fire. 

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1 hour ago, hhvferry said:

But in terms of influencing other countries, although they are poor at using it the UK, particularly when combined with other nations, still has great leverage when emissions and environmental standards are allied to trade talks

Well said.

And factor in public demand and you can really influence things. Look at what's happened to the egg industry, based on welfare demands from the public. Once it's fashionable to buy low carbon, China will have to meet that demand in the things that it sells us.

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2 hours ago, colinschandler said:

I fully support their voice that we need to investigate and reduce global warning and i am sure the founders were well meaning and passionate. .Unfortunately they are now demonstrating against the wrong administration. Even if the UK were to implement all of the XR plans and their aiiies such as adopting a plant based food system by banning animal farming and their other plans to reduce our generation of greenhouse gases to zero, it would have a negligible effect on the very real risks created by global warning. They are disrupting the normal life of UK at a time when we should be concentrating all resources to combat Covid 19.

The coal burning based power generation policies of USA and China and the mega pollution of the oceans by India  have several orders greater effect than cows passing wind. What we should all be doing globally is for the all of the other nations of the world to to put pressure on the USA and China but who have declared that they will do nothing if it would harm their  own economies. In 2019 USA and China produced around 40% of worldwide greenhouse gases between them with hundreds of coal fired power stations and the UK 1% now with only 3.

...and two of those will close next year & Radcliffe in 2024.

Germany has the most coal fired power stations within the EU. The EU is the worlds third largest producer of greenhouse gasses and within that Germany are the EU's biggest offender, 667 tonnes of CO2. The U.K. is 2nd with 310 tonnes.

The GWP (global warming potential) top ten table reads: China, USA, EU, India, Russia, Japan, Brazil, Germany, Indonesia & Canada.

Australia produces more GWP emissions  than the U.K. 

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12 hours ago, elaine80 said:

Scotland and Wales are adding Portugal back onto the quarantine lists. Not I guess that it matters to anyone coming back via Santander or Bilbao as Spain was already on the list.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54019938

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53990093

There are a number of reports of furious English holidaymakers who shelled out big sums to rush back from Portugal 24 hours early to avoid quarantining only to find out it wasn't actually necessary. I get the impression the government are paying games, trying to prove they have control and reminding the public that people should have heeded the original advice not to travel abroad. Ed. 

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6 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

There are a number of reports of furious English holidaymakers who shelled out big sums to rush back from Portugal 24 hours early to avoid quarantining only to find out it wasn't actually necessary. I get the impression the government are paying games, trying to prove they have control and reminding the public that people should have heeded the original advice not to travel abroad. Ed. 

There were a few upset folk on the tv today at airports in more important news a GP was on TV saying people in London are being told to go as far as the Isle of Wight for testing.

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I'm not sure why people are so upset. They've had ample warning that the government is likely to introduce these random measures. I don't blame them for going on holiday but they shouldn't be shocked when it happens.

My own view is that the measures need to be far more targeted to do much good and package holiday air travel would be a good place to start. I understand that it is possible for the virus not to be picked up immediately, but surely testing at the airport and another test (maybe you pay for it) a few days later would remove the vast majority of the risk (certainly to a level lower than the general (untested) population. 

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Yes, the disjointed policies from the four home nations are ludicrous and totally undermine any credibility of the measures being taken, they seem to be based on guesswork and opinion rather than on any hard science.

But those who have been away recently had plenty of advance warning that this sort of thing could, and was likely to happen so I don't have much sympathy for them. They took a punt in full knowledge of the risks so they can hardly complain when it didn't come off.

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4 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

There are a number of reports of furious English holidaymakers who shelled out big sums to rush back from Portugal 24 hours early to avoid quarantining only to find out it wasn't actually necessary. I get the impression the government are paying games, trying to prove they have control and reminding the public that people should have heeded the original advice not to travel abroad. Ed. 

The UK Govt explanation for Portugal is that whilst the cases per 100k had risen above the magic line, the number of cases per 1000 tested had dropped - ie the effect was due to tests increasing, that is definitely the balanced approach, however I would have preferred a more subtle approach on where you actually went to.

I note that when TUI looked at their figures for Greece they concluded that the problem was not Greece, it was not even a single Island, it was actually due to a party resort on the Island that they went to - they have now stopped use of that resort.

We should now have enough information to manage the risks properly and tailor the precise limitations of isolation to the identifiable risks.

 

 

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Therea are a number of such resort hotspots around Greece as well as the one in Zante, Mykonos where Harry MaGuire got into trouble and Malia on Crete for example. Same applies to Spain with Magaluf etc.

Trying to isolate individual towns across Europe could be a nuance too far, is the available data sufficiently detailed to form a judgement in each case and how do you select which resorts to target?

Ultimately it is still a people problem, mix people up from all over Europe and no social distancing and the result is inevitable..

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10 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

Yes, the disjointed policies from the four home nations are ludicrous and totally undermine any credibility of the measures being taken,

I think that having different policies was inevitable, there is no way that the devolved administrations were going to not use the powers they have, Of the 3, I have the most respect for the approaches taken in Northern Ireland,

In hindsight, pandemic response should not have been devolved and should have stayed at the National level with UK control of the overall picture and options. Within a sensible framework local decisions could be made to move at different speeds at the local nation or local level, whether it be Glasgow, Manchester or London. Having quarantine decisions for travelers made at the Devolved level was totally wrong !

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