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Occasionally required to work with ABP for my job, never a hassle to have to down to the docks for a meeting in Hull. During my times around there though I have noticed that unloading/loading does tak

Are you sure it's not the Duke of York to the US prosecutor's office? Ed. 

Ferry travel was better in the early 80s when the Tor sisters were the best UK ferries in terms of comfort and class by a mile. Very sad to see where we are now with P&O.

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Just picked up on FB supporters pages that most of her crew have been made redundant although there was a good turn out from them to see the ship away and were led by Capt Kevin Alcock, himself redundant after many years of loyal service..

 She`s not coming back..........from anywhere is she?

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22 minutes ago, Paully said:

Just picked up on FB supporters pages that most of her crew have been made redundant although there was a good turn out from them to see the ship away and were led by Capt Kevin Alcock, himself redundant after many years of loyal service..

 She`s not coming back..........from anywhere is she?

Nope, I have a feeling she's heading to a beach in Gujarat.

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6 hours ago, jonno said:

Nope, I have a feeling she's heading to a beach in Gujarat.

India is very unlikely...Due to fairly ludicrous rules it's very difficult for European companies to scrap there.  (When you look into the detail of this, at least some yards in India should be approved as is the case in Turkey).

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7 hours ago, RickOShea said:

India is very unlikely...Due to fairly ludicrous rules it's very difficult for European companies to scrap there.  (When you look into the detail of this, at least some yards in India should be approved as is the case in Turkey).

But is P&O a European company? 

Ed

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2 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

But is P&O a European company? 

Ed

No. It is currently owned by a Dubai conglomerate called DP World. The company motto now seems to be roughly....`` If it doesnt make money it gets chopped``

The cruise division was `floated` off to Carnival some time ago.

Edited by Paully
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Confirmation of the demise of POY in that her grand piano was apparently craned off yesterday for storage and sale in Hull. 

In terms of DP world, I wonder what their interest is in P&O. For instance,  the land they own in Europort must be worth quite a bit. Do they own other parts of ports too?

Someone from Belgium on one of the facebook groups was saying that the city of Bruges was looking into inviting another company to tender for the crossing. And there were also suggestions that use of the dock in Zeebrugge was conditionally related to operating passenger services. 

Funnily enough some footage popped up on the Hull Daily Mail the other day about the Spiro ferry, not a success and ultimately left to the more efficient North Sea Ferries to come in and take over. I hope that we see a similar changing of the guard in this scenario too.

 

 

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Very sad news about Pride of York. I hope she is sold on to another operator and not scrapped. Presumably P&O are keeping the Pride of Bruges on for now because she is in the better shape of the two? 

It is a shame that P&O apparently won't consider keeping Pride of Bruges to provide a passenger service on alternate days, alongside a freighter, so that there is at least a daily service for freight. 

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I hope youre right Ryan but the perennial POY gearbox and other problems probably mean `The beach` somewhere.

The route did well on freight but the hotel side only did well seasonally and that was using Indonesian/Phillipino crew. European crew prices would be a non starter. Although I`d love it, I can`t see a passenger service starting up again for a long time. Never say never though.

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1 hour ago, Paully said:

The route did well on freight but the hotel side only did well seasonally

I still don't understand why P&O didn't adopt a seasonal approach - if it makes sense at St Malo with the employment terms that BF have to meet, then it could surely be adopted in Hull?

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3 hours ago, Paully said:

I hope youre right Ryan but the perennial POY gearbox and other problems probably mean `The beach` somewhere.

The route did well on freight but the hotel side only did well seasonally and that was using Indonesian/Phillipino crew. European crew prices would be a non starter. Although I`d love it, I can`t see a passenger service starting up again for a long time. Never say never though.

I wonder if Stena might look at it. They could offer an exclusive Landbridge service along the M62 corridor?

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3 hours ago, VikingVoyager said:

I still don't understand why P&O didn't adopt a seasonal approach - if it makes sense at St Malo with the employment terms that BF have to meet, then it could surely be adopted in Hull?

BF`s costs are probably higher than the Hull route but P & O don`t get under the counter subsidies (Somanor/Somabret) 

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6 hours ago, Paully said:

BF`s costs are probably higher than the Hull route but P & O don`t get under the counter subsidies (Somanor/Somabret) 

Paully, that's not exactly accurate. SOMABRET own the Brittany ships, they pay BAI to operate them. SOMANOR own all of the Normandy ships and charter Etretat and again pay BAI to operate them.

BAI own and operate two ships, NEX & Cap Finistere and they charter and operate Connemara, Pelican & Galicia

Both societies reimburse BAI for maintenance, crew, guest services staff, victuals, fancy goods and the bonded stores.

Collectively, they are the Brittany Ferries brand.

The only subsidies BAI received were four years worth of Motorway of the Seas funding from 2110 -2014 when they bought Superfast V.

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7 hours ago, RickOShea said:

P&O Ferries is a British company (albeit with Dubai ownership).

OK but is the 'European' rule you cited relating to scrapping a geograpic one (companies on the continent of Europe) or political (EU only) in which case it doesn't apply to P&O? 

Ed

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13 hours ago, jonno said:

The only subsidies BAI received were four years worth of Motorway of the Seas funding from 2110 -2014 when they bought Superfast V.

 

But is that over-the-counter subsidies? Paully was referring to under-the-counter!¬†ūüėú

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6 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

OK but is the 'European' rule you cited relating to scrapping a geograpic one (companies on the continent of Europe) or political (EU only) in which case it doesn't apply to P&O? 

Ed

Who knows these days!!

The EU angle certainly applies to 31 December - beyond that who knows!

I think this is EU rules but UK is still bound to follow most EU rules until Westminster alters domestic law.  One thing that lots of armchair politicians don't seem to realise is the EU never made UK laws, the UK Parliament simply enacted legislation to follow EU rules/laws so (broadly speaking) everything that applies on 31 December still applies on 1 January until the UK Government changes individual laws. 

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Fun memories of squeezing through the King George lock on the POY! It had to be seen to be believed.

Good to see that she made the local news too, even though the BBC didn’t get the story completely right!

 

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On 07/12/2020 at 14:07, VikingVoyager said:

Indeed, it was Larne I was thinking of. Are the P&O berths much more restrictive than the Stena ones (thinking about your windage comment)? Are you thinking that they will keep Seaway for relief cover then?

I can see the sense in keeping a pair where possible, but not if the repair costs are excessive or for a short period. P&O must be thinking they will need four passenger vessels Do - Cal, which is where the Darwins are superior.  Wouldn't the crewing requirements of Burgundy / the Darwins be fairly similar when in freight mode?

Can’t comment on crewing numbers as I don’t know them or what they are certified for at each capacity level.

Seaway is about the maximum Larne can handle (she even overhangs slightly at Cairnryan IIRC), and afaik that is only on one berth.  Stena Lagan/Mersey is the biggest ferry to visit but that was for an IWS in calm weather and not on the berths normally used for ferries.  An attempt to bring a Superfast in for an IWS was aborted as it was judged unsafe.

On 09/12/2020 at 13:31, jonno said:

Short termism for me. They need to work the problems not simply cull.

They’ve tried to work the problems out for at least the past 19 years and not made a penny on the route.  Personally I think they should be applauded for sticking with it for nearly two decades!  Perhaps they could have done more, but there’s only so much you can do in a declining market.  

If the route is viable someone else will pick it up, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.  P&O look to be keeping most of the freight and airlines and the like will be desperate to fill seats and repair the Industry reputation.  When DFDS dropped their Harwich route many said someone else would take it over.  We are still waiting.  Operators rarely close a route without examining all of their options first, not least because they don’t want to strengthen the competition either.

One of the lessons learned from Covid is that passengers alone can’t be relied on to sustain a ferry operation. Freight volumes on the other hand bounced back incredibly quickly!  If it was my cash I know what type of operation I would be investing in.

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10 hours ago, tarbyonline said:

They’ve tried to work the problems out for at least the past 19 years and not made a penny on the route

Out of interest, what is the above based? Please don't misunderstand - I'm sure it is correct as I know that you a very knowledgeable on this subject, I'm just interested in knowing where it came from.

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11 hours ago, tarbyonline said:

 

Seaway is about the maximum Larne can handle (she even overhangs slightly at Cairnryan IIRC), and afaik that is only on one berth.  Stena Lagan/Mersey is the biggest ferry to visit but that was for an IWS in calm weather and not on the berths normally used for ferries.  An attempt to bring a Superfast in for an IWS was aborted as it was judged unsafe.

What is a IWS?

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6 hours ago, VikingVoyager said:

Out of interest, what is the above based?

If you look at the published accounts for P&O European Ferries (Irish Sea) Limited they show the following gross and operating profit / loss (Financial YE is 31/12 so same as calendar year)

                 Gross Profit    Operating Profit

YE 2018 - £9.3m profit     £2.5m loss
YE 2017 - £8.8m profit     £0.4m loss 
YE 2016 - 16.4m profit     £5.2m profit
YE 2015 - £5.6m profit     £4.5m loss
YE 2014 - £3.2m profit     £8.6m loss
YE 2013 - £1m profit        £14.9m loss

So technically making a profit on operations before administration, depreciation, pension liabilities etc. come off to produce operating profit.

This is going off the stated principal activity of the company being the operation of passenger and vehicle ferries on the Irish Sea, but since P&O Ferries have 17 different companies registered in the UK (not all ferry operations, there are holding, property and pension entities), it does not mean that all operations in the Irish Sea go through this particular company.

Edited by Shipping Forecast
For clarity
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