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2021 Timetables


nodwad
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5 minutes ago, Seashore said:

You say Le Havre - Portsmouth is BF's (distant) second route for freight? Why would you take a Visentini off it that takes 91-95 trucks and put Bretagne on it that takes 39? She'd have to do 3x sailings each way just to maintain capacity and there's not 48 hours in a day for her to be able to do that.

I'm totally with you on the Cap Finistere change though.

Last year ETRETAT made 3 crossings per day compared to 2 usually. It is quite possible to reproduce the same schedule with BRETAGNE because nothing worse than leaving a ship 10 hours docked. It's more profitable for him to sail. 3 crossings per day (not 3 round trips/ returns, which is impossible !!!) with BRETAGNE, it easily replaces 2 crossings per day with ETRETAT.

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48 minutes ago, Seashore said:

Then the timetable would have already been published? I think for accuracy the "does" should now read "did". Best will in the world 2021 is not going to see the traffic volumes of 2022.

Pulling PA off Portsmouth-Santander is pretty significant (it's obvious that is happening, the timetable simply doesn't work with it), who'd have seen that coming with Plymouth back to two weekly sailings?

Adding Armorique on Roscoff-Cork is pretty significant (post-Brexit transition date, the Irish/French wanting to avoid UK landbridge).

Closing Plymouth-Roscoff for 5 months is pretty significant. It's a "holiday route" and no reason to think that St Malo is much different, like you say @georgem7 they carried similar volumes, but if I was a betting man I'd say Armorique is doing St Malo until 22nd March, overnight sailings only, when she goes back to Plymouth. The 22nd March is currently Galicia's first sailing (Cherbourg to Portsmouth). If it were just to be Armorique doing the winter sailings and Bretagne the summer then that is nothing really new, a timetable like that issued now wouldn't surprise anyone. It's why I reckon there's something going on with Cap Finistere going to St Malo (a Mon/Tue/Wed return to Spain when St Malo passengers must be at their lowest) and it's linked to the Spain timetables. Bretagne leaves the fleet this Autumn, either in November when PA can release her or in January when Armorique is freed from the Ouistreham route after both Normandie and MSM have their refits (that doesn't normally happen that they both have refits in the same year, 2020/21 is not going to be normal!).

Okay well I am still not convinced let's just wait and see what Wednesday brings. I won't say too much more but...

  • I still think, like others, they've staggered the release to take the pressure off. 
  • Barfleur, despite being off all summer, is resuming her normal schedule next year. I don't think we would have seen Bretagne back in service if what you predict is true.
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Don't forget that they might also simply have been waiting for the St Malo docker situation to be resolved before releasing any information. There would be no point running anything there if the dispute was ongoing and they'd want a new contract confirmed before committing themselves. Ed  

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10 hours ago, Seashore said:

Feel free to delete if I've overly engaged in conjecture, speculation and fantasy 

Nothing wrong with speculation (and nowhere have I said there is) provided it is on-topic (and consistent with the known facts that have already been published).

The two sequences of posts that I removed were off-topic.  One that was a rehash of a well-rehearsed discussion that has already taken place several times in the forum about the philosophy of how BF should view Le Havre against Ouistreham in its network (and that contradicted what has already been published about plans for Ouistreham).  The other that was an increasingly political discussion about the culpability for industrial relations at Le Havre and St Malo.  In both cases the sequences of posts had nothing to do with the 2021 timetables (and what is already known about them).

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Just now, colin said:

Jean-Marc Roué was at a bash in St Malo Friday with the new Maire and assorted marine industry wallahs. No hint of negative vibes regarding St Malo.

How involved is he these days with the business, some of his comments in the press have not been wholly accurate ?

 

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4 minutes ago, colin said:

Jean-Marc Roué was at a bash in St Malo Friday with the new Maire and assorted marine industry wallahs. No hint of negative vibes regarding St Malo.

I'd have thought that any interplay between St Malo and Spanish sailings that could link their timetable issues would have the potential to be positive rather than negative for St Malo.  For example, in the unlikely event of the thinking being to send CF to St Malo for a crew change visit then I'd have thought that would be additional to Bretagne's normal service.

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11 hours ago, colin said:

Jean-Marc Roué was at a bash in St Malo Friday with the new Maire and assorted marine industry wallahs. No hint of negative vibes regarding St Malo.

Seen also at the port of Le Havre headquarter 1 week ago. He has an excellent relationship with the mayor of Le Havre, who is the last Prime Minister of France. A sign of trust, but I'm not sure that this is decisive in operating choices (like St Malo).

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Regarding 2020/21 timetables ,I have said I know of people who have had a booking  even before they have been released.a member said up to few years ago it was possible but no longer.yet is still goes on because last year and earlier this year I have spoken with people who have done this and still do.there must be someone out there who knows all about this guardly protected secret? If there is somebody in the know out there please let us mere mortals out here know.i think the vast majority out here would agree it is not right and should be stopped immediately if true.if it is true why has it been allowed to go on for so long? Stay safe

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Here is another thought about St Malo. Do you think BF is trying to do some integration with Condor on this corridor? I have always thought it would make sense for Condor to become the combined high speed operator with a British based crew and it would make a lot of operational sense for NEX to be crewed on a rota with other Condor high speed craft.

And  maybe even Clipper operating some kind of UK-CI-St Malo service as a freight oriented service?

Unions and French pride aside, it would make sense for BF to base more of its operations in the UK. Now it has a share in Condor, it has a great opportunity to do this. It could help to overcome problems caused by currency fluctuations and give it an operational base closer to its main customers, and it might just be useful post-Brexit to have a UK operations base.

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9 hours ago, Altranter said:

Here is another thought about St Malo. Do you think BF is trying to do some integration with Condor on this corridor? I have always thought it would make sense for Condor to become the combined high speed operator with a British based crew and it would make a lot of operational sense for NEX to be crewed on a rota with other Condor high speed craft.

 

And  maybe even Clipper operating some kind of UK-CI-St Malo service as a freight oriented service?

 

Unions and French pride aside, it would make sense for BF to base more of its operations in the UK. Now it has a share in Condor, it has a great opportunity to do this. It could help to overcome problems caused by currency fluctuations and give it an operational base closer to its main customers, and it might just be useful post-Brexit to have a UK operations base.

 

I've always thought that, too. It makes sense. That's what I said above.

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1 hour ago, Altranter said:

Here is another thought about St Malo. Do you think BF is trying to do some integration with Condor on this corridor? I have always thought it would make sense for Condor to become the combined high speed operator with a British based crew and it would make a lot of operational sense for NEX to be crewed on a rota with other Condor high speed craft.

And  maybe even Clipper operating some kind of UK-CI-St Malo service as a freight oriented service?

Like you said, the French element would be an issue. Remember they don't own 100% of Condor, so if they could operate their own ship they'd control all the traffic. You'd struggle to get one of the Condor ships to sail from Portsmouth, stop off at both Guernsey and Jersey, go to St Malo and back all within a 24-hour period. It would also be a very long crossing from Portsmouth - St Malo and can't see many hauliers being keen.

St Malo isn't a huge freight route, but part of that may be to do with the limited freight capacity of Bretagne. She can take 39 lorries per crossing so on an average of 6x rotations a week that is 234 but you'd be sacrificing a lot of car deck space on Bretagne to do that. If Cap Finistere did 5x rotations you'd be looking at 550 freight units each way per week so into more serious numbers. Yes it takes up a lot of car deck space, but must car drivers are probably more likely to be keener on being in the deck 2 "basement" on CF than deck 5 on Bretagne.

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1 hour ago, Seashore said:

Like you said, the French element would be an issue. Remember they don't own 100% of Condor, so if they could operate their own ship they'd control all the traffic. You'd struggle to get one of the Condor ships to sail from Portsmouth, stop off at both Guernsey and Jersey, go to St Malo and back all within a 24-hour period. It would also be a very long crossing from Portsmouth - St Malo and can't see many hauliers being keen.

St Malo isn't a huge freight route, but part of that may be to do with the limited freight capacity of Bretagne. She can take 39 lorries per crossing so on an average of 6x rotations a week that is 234 but you'd be sacrificing a lot of car deck space on Bretagne to do that. If Cap Finistere did 5x rotations you'd be looking at 550 freight units each way per week so into more serious numbers. Yes it takes up a lot of car deck space, but must car drivers are probably more likely to be keener on being in the deck 2 "basement" on CF than deck 5 on Bretagne.

CF doesn't fit either the berth or the linkspan at St Malo nor does she have the passenger capacity required. Historically the route has never been an attractive freight crossing.

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6 hours ago, jonno said:

CF doesn't fit either the berth or the linkspan at St Malo nor does she have the passenger capacity required. Historically the route has never been an attractive freight crossing.

CF will probably replace BAIE DE SEINE / CONNEMARA

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28 minutes ago, LHCity said:

CF will probably replace BAIE DE SEINE / CONNEMARA

Galicia is effectively replacing BDS.  Plans for Connemara are currently unknown (unless in the interim she is just going to return to Ireland-Spain).  She’s currently on a temporary timetable necessitated by the covid shutdown, and there is no indication that BF intends a permanent replacement for this.  (Portsmouth-Cherbourg timetables have been published and do not indicate that Connemara’s schedule will be sustained when things get “back to normal”).

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23 minutes ago, Gareth said:

Galicia is effectively replacing BDS.  Plans for Connemara are currently unknown (unless in the interim she is just going to return to Ireland-Spain).  She’s currently on a temporary timetable necessitated by the covid shutdown, and there is no indication that BF intends a permanent replacement for this.  (Portsmouth-Cherbourg timetables have been published and do not indicate that Connemara’s schedule will be sustained when things get “back to normal”).

The probability is that ETRETAT works in duo with CONNEMARA in Le Havre / Portsmouth (see timetables from September to November). These times could be like this until the GALICIA is delivered. After that, it could be CONNEMARA 6 days a week to Le Havre / Portsmouth and CAP FINISTERE once a week ... ETRETAT leaves the BF fleet ... unless Brittany Ferries wants to open a new line to Ireland from Le Havre to "cushion" the effects of Brexit on France / England. The question is for St Malo ? 

Do the schedules of Le Havre and St Malo have something in common ? For Le Havre, BF's response is: "Our fleet will welcome new boats, there will probably be changes soon"

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12 minutes ago, David Williams said:

Kerry is due to leave in November and Connemara is due back in Ireland then.

ps and if Le Havre is so important for Freight why did BF use Cherbourg when running a freight only service.

Fuel economy. Shorter journey (for boats, not for trucks)

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34 minutes ago, David Williams said:

why did BF use Cherbourg when running a freight only service.

It’s a curious one that.  I can only think that it was some sort of compromise attempt at servicing the western part of the country at a time when Poole-Cherbourg, Portsmouth-St Malo and Plymouth-Roscoff were suspended.

Equally, I am sure that running to Le Havre was also a compromise.  I bet BF would have run Connemara to Ouistreham, directly against MSM, if that had been possible.

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Until the winter timetable and her return to Ireland Connemara will sail to both Le Havre & Cherbourg.

Pont Aven continues the single weekly sailing to Cherbourg until Galicia begins from Spring 2021. From what I've been led to believe this Sunday/Monday sailing is permanent and time on the berth will also be for crew change.

I fully understand why Galicia is linked to being a BDS replacement but in reality she isn't, Nothing about the E-Flexers timetable suggests this. It's solely fleet volume... It's BF's fault, they said it and many excepted it in a literal sense. BF are keen to maintain the Spain -Spain - Le Havre rotations now vacant since BDS' departure... I have been led to believe a particular vessel has already been earmarked for this but as it's usually met with derision, I'll no longer mention it.

For me the only question is which Visentini will continue serving Le Havre from November, will it be Etretat or will she finally leave? If it were me I'd see her leaving and negotiate to keep Kerry beyond November, she is the better ship... could this be the reason for the timetable delay?

Further down the road let's not discount the flexibility of Barfleur once Cotentin has returned, the erstwhile Truckliner would be an ideal ship to replace a chartered Visentini at Le Havre.

 

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Galicia’s timetable is completely predictable from what has already been published for the Portsmouth-Cherbourg route.  The days are not the same as BDS and the crew change port is different, but she will be undertaking two rotations per week to Spain.  That’s what BDS did too - one out, one in.  Last year’s UK to Spain sailings were undertaken be CF, PA and BDS.  Next years’ will be undertaken by PA, CF and Galicia.  If that does not equate to Galicia is replacing BDS in the Spanish fleet then I’m not sure what does!

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Quote from BF https://brittanyferriesnewsroom.com/brittany-ferries-confirms-passenger-and-freight-numbers-and-a-new-ship-charter/

the company has confirmed investment in a second vessel. To be chartered from Stena Line following its construction in China, she will further increase capacity on Spanish routes when delivered ahead of the 2021 season.
The charter will come with more on-board accommodation and a large garage for passenger and freight vehicles. She will replace Baie de Seine and Brittany Ferries will have the option to purchase after the expiry of the initial five year charter.
 

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