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On 28/07/2020 at 12:49, jonno said:

You know the market a lot better, apart from the obvious attractions of W.B Yeats, is there the appetite in Ireland for greater numbers of holiday traffic or are the routes to France seen just as a direct & more convenient freight link?

In terms of Stena Horizon, surely the charter is simply an accountants paper exercise as Northern Marine Services Group are part of the Stena Sphere?

I think BF will eventually offer a year round service from Rosslare to Cherbourg, for me it'll be Cap Finistere or Santona plus I wouldn't be surprised if there was a dash to Portsmouth squeezed in to that too. It's why I believe Irish Ferries have made a blunder by not replacing Oscar Wilde.

Cherbourg will become to France what Portsmouth has become to the U.K. on the western channel.

...In the Jonno Sphere I predict BF will spend the €40m on Tirenia's Shardon and sail her from Rosslare to Cherbourg... honest.

Please don't be a spoil sport and explain why this is highly impractical, highly improbable and just daft. A man must have dreams!😄

Is this a relaistic possibility and do when do you think it would come to fruition?

I would love to do Ireland - France on a cruise ferry. The reviews on Yeates look awful so I'm not interested and the Horizon looks not very good. 

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One season the port of Arromanches did have 2.5 million passengers and 500,000 vehicles.

I think we all make the mistake in not appreciating the ways and means. A port may have excellent facilities but if the access and approaches are limited HGV's and holiday traffic will look elsewhere.

Yeah, the French BFenthusiasts website has been on strike from about 5 minutes before it went live. And that was 15 years ago. Ed. 

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8 minutes ago, Le Quiberon said:

Is this a relaistic possibility and do when do you think it would come to fruition?

I would love to do Ireland - France on a cruise ferry. The reviews on Yeates look awful so I'm not interested and the Horizon looks not very good. 

If you mean Tirenia's Shardon, yeah €40m will buy here complete with Batman all over her which is cheap I suppose for a 214m long 2005 ship with loads of berths but my mentioning of her was purely tongue in cheek. The Italian ships are constantly up for sale, I think they take it in turns. As I said a man must have dreams Le Q...

Give me 10 minutes and I'll come to a perfectly reasonable conclusion as to why BF should buy Amorella from Viking too... Never leave me alone with the ferry purse strings, infact never leave me unsupervised with a credit card in B&Q either!

... Ok, just never leave me unsupervised at all...😉

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10 hours ago, Le Quiberon said:

I have to say its the fact that an economie ship are used on the Rosslare - France run that puts me off in all honesty. If a 'proper' cruise ferry as used I would do the route. Lets hope they are introduced in the future. 

BF seem to be expanding the Cork Roscoff route for cruise ferries with both the return of the Pont Aven and the economie plus Amorique,

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  • 2 months later...

Just to clear something up. Etretat and Connemara remain owned by Stena.  There is a specific type of charter (the name of which escapes me (demise charter?) but Stena RoRo do it a lot) whereby the chartering party can change the name of the owner to theirs, but that does NOT mean they are the ultimate owner!

Stena Horizon is owned by Visentini (tbh I think she always has been except from on paper).  Talk is Stena Flavia will replace her when released from Ventspils by one of the rebuilt Lagan or Mersey. 
 

There is still a lot of overcapacity on Ireland - France.  The most logical expansion would be Stena to offer a daily service as it would give hauliers a real second option rather than everyone sailing on the same days!

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15 hours ago, tarbyonline said:

There is still a lot of overcapacity on Ireland - France.  The most logical expansion would be Stena to offer a daily service as it would give hauliers a real second option rather than everyone sailing on the same days!

It will take some capacity to bypass Calais. Le Havre offers an opportunity for Ireland, just 2 hours from Paris. Cherbourg is too far from everything.

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4 hours ago, LHCity said:

It will take some capacity to bypass Calais. Le Havre offers an opportunity for Ireland, just 2 hours from Paris. Cherbourg is too far from everything.

Cherbourg is also a shorter sea voyage.  Higher utilisation, reduced fuel costs, less time drivers sitting on their backside (assuming accompanied continues to be used), and cheaper freight rates.  Calais isn’t the only port accessed by landbridge either.  Given much passing through Calais from Ireland isn’t even going to France in the first place (BE/NL/DE all trade far more with Ireland), it’s quite conceivable that other ports closer to the destination will be used.  There’s also the Northern Ireland element to be considered as well.  At present landbridge via Holyhead and France is attractive.  That could well switch to ports like Harwich.  Landbridge is only about 150,000 units per annum total in any case (official figures).  That’s one extra ship given the spare capacity that already exists, assuming everything makes the switch.

The Ireland - France voyage is also very expensive in terms of rates.  Don’t underestimate how tight margins are in haulage.

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The shorter sea trip does not seem to bother Irish Ferries, which offers a Dublin/Cherbourg route. It's no less long than Rosslare/Le Havre. If Calais becomes impassable, we will have to find attractive solutions to get around it.

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22 hours ago, LHCity said:

It will take some capacity to bypass Calais. Le Havre offers an opportunity for Ireland, just 2 hours from Paris. Cherbourg is too far from everything.

Who then caters for the likes of Rennes,Bordeaux and Western France? Cherbourg is much better placed for this area.

Paris is very important but is not the only place in France that has to be catered for.Le Havre is central but too close to Ouistreham for Brittany Ferries to give it it's full support.

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36 minutes ago, imprimerie said:

Who then caters for the likes of Rennes,Bordeaux and Western France? Cherbourg is much better placed for this area.

The Autoroute network. There's really not much difference in the journey times in those locations to Cherbourg.

Bordeaux to...
Cherbourg - 6 hours 47 minutes
Le Havre - 6 hours 30 minutes

Rennes to...
Cherbourg - 2 hours 30 minute
Le Havre - 3 hours 1 minute

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13 minutes ago, Jim said:

The Autoroute network. There's really not much difference in the journey times in those locations to Cherbourg.

Bordeaux to...
Cherbourg - 6 hours 47 minutes
Le Havre - 6 hours 30 minutes

Rennes to...
Cherbourg - 2 hours 30 minute
Le Havre - 3 hours 1 minute

No Autoroute charges between Rennes / Ouistreham, Chrerbourg.

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5 minutes ago, imprimerie said:

No Autoroute charges between Rennes / Ouistreham, Chrerbourg.

Perhaps not - but the point is that it's not as clear cut as first suggested. 

A ship operator has a whole host of factors to consider - the ships, the schedule, the port charges, the required staffing, contracts already in place etc etc. 

Being blunt, the operator doesn't necessarily care how you get to the port or what it cost you. They care that you'll want or need to make the journey enough to choose them over their competitors - if there are any. 

 

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I am not sure what is being argued any more !

If it is a port from Ireland then Cherbourg seems to be convenient as it saves a few hours on the crossing compared to Le Havre and has decent capacity.

If it is as a BF port, then they seem to want to keep all 3 as long as they can make them pay (ie with a UK subsidy !)

On a separate matter, there was a BF tweet saying that the fastcat timetables should be out soon.

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2 minutes ago, David Williams said:

On a separate matter, there was a BF tweet saying that the fastcat timetables should be out soon.

Thanks David, that is interesting. Shows they are going to run the Nex after all.

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1 hour ago, Jim said:

Perhaps not - but the point is that it's not as clear cut as first suggested. 

A ship operator has a whole host of factors to consider - the ships, the schedule, the port charges, the required staffing, contracts already in place etc etc. 

Being blunt, the operator doesn't necessarily care how you get to the port or what it cost you. They care that you'll want or need to make the journey enough to choose them over their competitors - if there are any. 

 

Glenn Carr at Rosslare has said that the announcement before the end of December is about Le Havre. The port believe that the sailings will match the 20 hour landbridge times and their plan is to carry almost a third of this traffic... 40-50,000 trailers annually.

A Rosslare - Le Havre route will also qualify for TEN-T funding.

He says there will be 6 sailings per week, I'm assuming that's 3 to Le Havre & 3 to Cherbourg.

The Hauliers want a consistent quantity - a daily service to France, and are sick to the back teeth of the congestion around Dublin.

During Covid accompanied freight from Ireland has only dropped 2.7%, it's the TEU's which have taken the biggest hit.

There is a lot going on at the port.

All of the access roads are being rebuilt and re routed to enable increased traffic flow, all of the check in areas for freight & passengers are to be enlarged together with improved access to the linkspans on the berths, border control will be twice the size so to will be the hardstanding within the port. The final phase will be the terminal.

Car carrier Neptune have also said that they are to increase the footprint of their facility just outside of the port and hauliers are beginning to increase their presence around the port too.

Dutch logistics company XELLZ has purchased a further 100,000sqm within the port giving them a total of 300,000sqm and are creating a FreeZone - these are areas within the EU where non EU goods can be introduced free from import duties.

It seems that the mindset of some is to look on Rosslare as an afterthought in a similar way that many of us look upon Poole rather than appreciate their strategic significance.

Maybe we're falling into the same trap with Le Havre due to being very passenger centric, which of course has always been the foundation of the forum but...

The ever increasing desire for operators to invest in twin loading RoPax vessels rather than traditional passenger ferries suggests that freight should be given more consideration?

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1 hour ago, jonno said:

Glenn Carr at Rosslare has said that the announcement before the end of December is about Le Havre. The port believe that the sailings will match the 20 hour landbridge times and their plan is to carry almost a third of this traffic... 40-50,000 trailers annually.

 

Do you have a link to that article?  The only articles I have read like https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/rosslare-port-in-talks-for-new-daily-direct-ferry-service-to-continental-europe-1.4372750 and https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/home/485178/new-rosslare-to-le-havre-shipping-route-could-benefit-waterford.html suggest things are only at discussion and ambition level for a Rosslare - Le Havre route.  

Unless every headline of long-term chaos at UK ports materialises (and - trying my best not to get political - there are now suggestions that in the end the UK will end up going along with whatever the EU wants in order to avoid "no deal") I think some are vastly over-estimating the need for additional direct ferry links from Ireland to mainland Europe.  

Let's not forget Cobelfret's fantastic network that could be easily extended and the opportunities for the other existing operators, Stena Line, Brittany Ferries and Irish Ferries to expand capacity on existing routes.

With everything going on in the world it's harder and harder to accurately say what will happen but my gut feeling is capacity additions will be much more modest in this sector than some think.  

We hear lots of criticism (mostly justified) at how the UK government has handled Brexit ferry matters but I am amazed that the Irish government has done so little about this if they feel it's so important to their economy.

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Kerry looks a bit tired arriving in Santander this morning, apparently she has a return trip to do from Santander to Rosslare this week, arriving back in Santander on Sunday. 

Le Havre movements has Connemara listed for departure this Friday at 0800 bound for Portsmouth.  According to my source, Connemara is due to dock in Santander on November 6th, presumably she will be carrying freight from Portsmouth then taking up the Rosslare/Spain run from Bilbao on November 8th.

Photo: Jose Luis Diaz Campa

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9 hours ago, Jim said:

The Autoroute network. There's really not much difference in the journey times in those locations to Cherbourg.

Bordeaux to...
Cherbourg - 6 hours 47 minutes
Le Havre - 6 hours 30 minutes

Rennes to...
Cherbourg - 2 hours 30 minute
Le Havre - 3 hours 1 minute

The economic heart of France is to the east of the Le Havre / Paris / Lyon / Marseille axis. The reality is there :

Cherbourg / Paris = 4 hours

Cherbourg / Strasbourg = 9 hours

Cherbourg / Lille = 5 hours

Le Havre / Paris = 2 hours 20 minutes

Le Havre  / Strasbourg = 7 hours (direct by A29)

Le Havre / Lille = 3 hours

Travel without traffic and by car. It takes a lot longer in the truck. In France, trucks are forbidden to drive more than 4 hours and 30 minutes without a 45-minute break. Cherbourg is out of competition to serve Paris, especially for anyone who wants to find an alternative to Calais and Hollyhead. When the truckers are on the ferry they do not drive or waste time which justifies an extra 2 hours to reach Le Havre from Rosslare.

There is a very small advantage over Cherbourg / Rennes, but you could say that Rennes is in The area of Roscoff's competence

The other reality is here :

Agrandir

Agrandir

 

Le Havre and its logistics and port area is a very large freight generator. It is also a feedering port for Ireland with a lot of transshipment from or to transoceaanic container ships.

Cherbourg, of course, has an important role to play. Already it's an alternative to Le Havre, and the duo Cherbourg / Le Havre has always worked well especially in the era of P-O / Townsend ... secondly, Cherbourg is the only port that can offer a direct link to Dublin in less than 24 hours. But it is clear that in the context of Brexit the Le Havre/Rosslare direct link will become competitive again as an alternative to Calais, provided capacity is provided.

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12 minutes ago, David Williams said:

So London is a bigger freight port than Dover !

All that means is that boxes are more important than lorries.

I am not sure why Paris is that important, not that many factories in Paris & the large ones in the outskirts have rail sidings !

Paris and its region account for more than 31% of the wealth created in France, and comprises 18% of the national population.

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5 hours ago, RickOShea said:

Do you have a link to that article?

No. It's the same individual who told me that BF were relocating to Rosslare and where to sail to Bilbao with a planned link to Cherbourg when the rumour started was that Connemara was being returned to Stena because business was poor.

I was laughed at when I posted the info about the switch so I tend to keep quiet now.

I think many of us know different people who drip feed information. The only reason I've posted about this is that it's more advanced than has been reported... it's a lot further forward than just being a rumour.

 

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