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2021 Timetables


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25 minutes ago, David Williams said:

Maybe switch to 2 ships a day  and keep the Kerry for Ireland given that the Connemara is now French crewed.

KERRY on LH / Rosslare ?  He's already on Roscoff/Ireland!

 

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One season the port of Arromanches did have 2.5 million passengers and 500,000 vehicles.

I think we all make the mistake in not appreciating the ways and means. A port may have excellent facilities but if the access and approaches are limited HGV's and holiday traffic will look elsewhere.

The most sensible and logical option for the CI is to join the EU in their own right, France is a far more logical place for them to belong too anyway. Rhys

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6 minutes ago, Gareth said:

I’ve removed another sequence of off-topic posts.

Spoilsport! If at any point in 2021 the timetables in Le Havre (assuming there are any) get disrupted by industrial action you'll have to reinstate them. 😜

Ed

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44 minutes ago, Grego said:

Anyone know when the 2021 summer bookings will be available?

Shouldn’t be long , it’s probably all ready to go as @colin has said probably delayed to avoid overloading the amazing website.

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1 hour ago, David Williams said:

Back to the timetable, I predict that Le Havre will not have any crossings as the Union causes so many problems to allow a reliable schedule.

“The Union”, capital U, is normally taken to refer to the Union of the four nations of the United Kingdom, and it is difficult to see how that can be linked to reliability of sailings to Le Havre.

If you mean “unions” then I am not sure I agree.  There are plenty of reasons why BF may stop sailing to Le Havre, but I am not sure that union difficulties will be one of them.  They have faced problems dealing with the unions at many of their ports, notably St Malo and Ouistreham, but it has never been a reason to pull out. At Le Havre it could be a contributory factor, but only if there are other reasons to stop sailing there.

We’ll see next week.  Difficult to know what their intentions re Le Havre are, but I am not sure we should be surprised either way.  As hhv said, BF’s commitment to the route is very peripheral.

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What is the latest regarding the updating of the timetables for next year have not posted in the group for over a year now for reasons and any updates on the E Flexers ?

 

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2 minutes ago, Aiden said:

What is the latest regarding the updating of the timetables for next year have not posted in the group for over a year now for reasons and any updates on the E Flexers ?

 

For the E-Flexers, read the earlier pages in this thread. Galicia is discussed and comes into service in March.

Timetable issuing also discussed at length. Most of France-England/Ireland on sale now, Spain-England/Ireland to follow next week, the “missing” Channel routes to St Malo, Le Havre and Normandie Express also touted for next week.

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2 hours ago, Gareth said:

I’ve removed another sequence of off-topic posts.

If you keep doing that, nothings is ever going to eclipse the Barfleur thread lol.

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1 minute ago, Seashore said:

If you keep doing that, nothings is ever going to eclipse the Barfleur thread lol.

Don’t worry - the Honfleur thread is well on the way.  Which will be good going for a member of the fleet that doesn’t even exist! 🤣

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13 minutes ago, Seashore said:

Cotentin.

She’s not in the published schedules for Poole-Cherbourg.  Are you thinking they may use her to Le Havre?  (In which case - here’s a twist - is it possible Le Havre may become freight-only?).  Food for thought (and would make sense).

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15 minutes ago, Gareth said:

She’s not in the published schedules for Poole-Cherbourg.  Are you thinking they may use her to Le Havre?  (In which case - here’s a twist - is it possible Le Havre may become freight-only?).  Food for thought (and would make sense).

Would make sense to use it Freight only and make that route freight only what is the need for it to be passenger anymore

 

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30 minutes ago, Gareth said:

She’s not in the published schedules for Poole-Cherbourg.  Are you thinking they may use her to Le Havre?  (In which case - here’s a twist - is it possible Le Havre may become freight-only?).  Food for thought (and would make sense).

I thought we’re not allowed to speculate lol.

She was meant to go on Poole-Cherbourg after a rebuild but can’t see them spending that now. Stena have been using her as a passenger ferry on a sort of Economie type service from Sweden to Poland. If there’s an expected downturn in passengers next year, and maybe freight post-Brexit transition, then it could be she returns from charter in another use.

(caveat, it’s likely Stena Lagan after rebuild is going to end up on the Karlskrona-Gdynia route, her rebuild is now delayed by four months).

There’s the Vissentinis in the mix too, although Kerry is only for 12-months and Etretat is time chartered. Plus Pelican.

I reckon there’s something going on with St Malo and Spain and they’re linked by this delayed timetable. So here we go:

Cotentin goes in as the “low-cost” option to Spain, carrying passengers and freight (she has 2200 lane metres compared to CF’s 1900) plus a round trip to France to switch crew, maybe Le Havre but probably not.

Cap Finistere does a weekly sailing to Spain (that’s your daily departure to Spain; 2x PA, 2x Galicia, 2x Cotentin, 1x Cap Finistere), which is why looking at the Galicia timetable I think you proposed @Gareth requires a signifiant change to CF’s timetable. She does the midweek Biscay trip you predicted then this scrubber-equipped, better cabins, no buffet (but they’re out anyway), capacity restricted (but all the fleet is likely to be for a while), expensive to operate at high speed but (efficient at normal speeds), Cap Finistere moves onto predominantly weekend-centric St Malo service.

But I could be completely wrong of course. I reckon there’s a “stinger” coming next week though, Spain and St Malo and Le Havre will all look very different to this year.

Edited by Seashore
I said Finland, meant Poland!
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16 minutes ago, Seashore said:

I reckon there’s a “stinger” coming next week

Yes, I get that vibe too.  I agree it feels like there is something radically different in the pipeline for those routes that is the reason for the delay.  Don't forget there is also the Rosslare route in the Spain mix, and what the plans are for that.  There are good indications that that may ultimately be where CF is destined, but that was not thought to be until all the Flexers had arrived.

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If there is a surprise/stinger/whatever, I really cannot see it concerning St Malo. I cannot see much change especially as it does similarly in numbers to Roscoff. They'd be foolish. At most they'll keep the Tuesday night return going through the summer season.  

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2 hours ago, Gareth said:

“The Union”, capital U, is normally taken to refer to the Union of the four nations of the United Kingdom, and it is difficult to see how that can be linked to reliability of sailings to Le Havre.

If you mean “unions” then I am not sure I agree.  There are plenty of reasons why BF may stop sailing to Le Havre, but I am not sure that union difficulties will be one of them.  They have faced problems dealing with the unions at many of their ports, notably St Malo and Ouistreham, but it has never been a reason to pull out. At Le Havre it could be a contributory factor, but only if there are other reasons to stop sailing there.

We’ll see next week.  Difficult to know what their intentions re Le Havre are, but I am not sure we should be surprised either way.  As hhv said, BF’s commitment to the route is very peripheral.

Peripheral ? Not that much. There are still 1 to 2 departments a day. Only ships are of poor quality on this line. If LH/Portsmouth is a periphery line then on can say the same about Cherbourg/Poole, Portsmouth/St Malo and Roscoff/Plymouth, as there is rarely more than 1 round trip per day.

If BF wants to stop Le Havre / Portsmouth what you say (something that is absolutely not expected) the 150 to 200,000 annual travelers and the FRET of the 2nd route of BF will leave for the Detroit, not to Ouistreham.

It's going to be a waste for BF. They can't afford to sacrifice their second route of Freight. On the contrary, improving the quality of passenger reception will only strengthen it. We have already seen the positive effects last year of the 3rd daily crossing : The only BF route has seen its attendance increase.

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My feeling is that BRETAGNE could be used 1 day out of 2 on ST MALO / PORTSMOUTH and LE HAVRE / PORTSMOUTH (hence the delay in publishing schedules). CAP FINISTERE could complete the route LE HAVRE / PORTSMOUTH when BRETAGNE is on ST MALO / PORTSMOUTH...? the question is whether when BRETAGNE is on LE HAVRE / PORTSMOUTH, Condor Ferries could fill the absence of BRETAGNE on St Malo?  It's a personal hypothesis

Other personal hypothesis :

Transfer of BRETAGNE to Le Havre / Portsmouth (instead of NORMANDIE), with 3 crossings per day (like the ETRETAT timetables last year) avoiding the boat to stay 10 hours at the quayside in Le Havre and compensating for the reduction in freight places. We saw last year that frequencies have contributed to the attractiveness of the line for passengers.

Transfer of CAP FINISTERE to St Malo / Portsmouth and Portsmouth / Spain. CONDOR complements Portsmouth / St Malo when CAP FINISTERE is in Spain.

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1 hour ago, georgem7 said:

If there is a surprise/stinger/whatever, I really cannot see it concerning St Malo. I cannot see much change especially as it does similarly in numbers to Roscoff. They'd be foolish. At most they'll keep the Tuesday night return going through the summer season.  

Then the timetable would have already been published? I think for accuracy the "does" should now read "did". Best will in the world 2021 is not going to see the traffic volumes of 2022.

Pulling PA off Portsmouth-Santander is pretty significant (it's obvious that is happening, the timetable simply doesn't work with it), who'd have seen that coming with Plymouth back to two weekly sailings?

Adding Armorique on Roscoff-Cork is pretty significant (post-Brexit transition date, the Irish/French wanting to avoid UK landbridge).

Closing Plymouth-Roscoff for 5 months is pretty significant. It's a "holiday route" and no reason to think that St Malo is much different, like you say @georgem7 they carried similar volumes, but if I was a betting man I'd say Armorique is doing St Malo until 22nd March, overnight sailings only, when she goes back to Plymouth. The 22nd March is currently Galicia's first sailing (Cherbourg to Portsmouth). If it were just to be Armorique doing the winter sailings and Bretagne the summer then that is nothing really new, a timetable like that issued now wouldn't surprise anyone. It's why I reckon there's something going on with Cap Finistere going to St Malo (a Mon/Tue/Wed return to Spain when St Malo passengers must be at their lowest) and it's linked to the Spain timetables. Bretagne leaves the fleet this Autumn, either in November when PA can release her or in January when Armorique is freed from the Ouistreham route after both Normandie and MSM have their refits (that doesn't normally happen that they both have refits in the same year, 2020/21 is not going to be normal!).

And that when the "missing" Cotentin comes back that she'll end up going to Spain as well a crew change in Cherbourg, maybe even doing Cherbourg-Rosslare to really eat into Stena and Irish Ferries' market (the freight wants the shortest road journey and BF have said they're struggling to make a profit on the Ireland-Spain route, they've dumped winter Roscoff because of lack of profit). Maybe she'll be Cherbourg > Rosslare > Santander > Portsmouth/Poole (Thurs?) > Santander > Rosslare > Cherbourg , which would explain her absence from the UK-Cherbourg timetables now and enables them to get rid of both Pelican and an Vissentini. Their press releases have said expect fewer crew ergo smaller fleet.

Maybe Le Havre and Bilbao both finish being served by BF so they can reduce costs by focusing on a single port in each area.

Feel free to delete if I've overly engaged in conjecture, speculation and fantasy @Gareth😉

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9 minutes ago, LHCity said:

My feeling is that BRETAGNE could be used 1 day out of 2 on ST MALO / PORTSMOUTH and LE HAVRE / PORTSMOUTH (hence the delay in publishing schedules). CAP FINISTERE could complete the route LE HAVRE / PORTSMOUTH when BRETAGNE is on ST MALO / PORTSMOUTH...? the question is whether when BRETAGNE is on LE HAVRE / PORTSMOUTH, Condor Ferries could fill the absence of BRETAGNE on St Malo?  It's a personal hypothesis

Other personal hypothesis :

Transfer of BRETAGNE to Le Havre / Portsmouth (instead of NORMANDIE), with 3 crossings per day (like the ETRETAT timetables last year) avoiding the boat to stay 10 hours at the quayside in Le Havre and compensating for the reduction in freight places. We saw last year that frequencies have contributed to the attractiveness of the line for passengers.

Transfer of CAP FINISTERE to St Malo / Portsmouth and Portsmouth / Spain. CONDOR complements Portsmouth / St Malo when CAP FINISTERE is in Spain.

You say Le Havre - Portsmouth is BF's (distant) second route for freight? Why would you take a Visentini off it that takes 91-95 trucks and put Bretagne on it that takes 39? She'd have to do 3x sailings each way just to maintain capacity and there's not 48 hours in a day for her to be able to do that.

I'm totally with you on the Cap Finistere change though.

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