Would you still go away if stayed home 2 weeks?

[Paully]

On 20/08/2020 at 09:00, mattofe7 said:

You seem to want perfection from experts on every subject from day on And that was never going to be likely. The experts gave us their best Consensus view based on the evidence at the time. They have then updated it as time went on. The other option is ignoring all experts like trump and bolsonaro do and we see where that got them.

Give me science based conclusions, however flawed, to reactionary fools.

Then if you accept everything you are told, you`re a bit daft are you not?..Most people make their own minds up independently but hey ho....For your information in March they were adamant that masks were of no benefit. If they had added the caveat that they were still evaluating them, then fine.But they didnt which was actually my point...

[Guest]

That's nice.

[cvabishop]

What astounds me is that in an age where medical science can perform apparent miracles in so many fields there seems to be no consensus as to the extent that masks of varying permeability can impede the transmission of viruses when breathed out and over what proximity to endanger others. Is this really beyond the capabilities of science to confirm?

[Paully]

11 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

What astounds me is that in an age where medical science can perform apparent miracles in so many fields there seems to be no consensus as to the extent that masks of varying permeability can impede the transmission of viruses when breathed out and over what proximity to endanger others. Is this really beyond the capabilities of science to confirm?

I do agree with you Colin. Thats the frustrating bit, they all seem to have either different opinions or none at all. 

[neilcvx]

12 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

What astounds me is that in an age where medical science can perform apparent miracles in so many fields there seems to be no consensus as to the extent that masks of varying permeability can impede the transmission of viruses when breathed out and over what proximity to endanger others. Is this really beyond the capabilities of science to confirm?

We can accept that research into finding a cure for cancer has improved cancer survival rates massively, we can accept that polio has almost been eradicated due to research to find an effective vaccine but some people are unwilling to accept that research into the effectiveness of masks can’t be trusted.

[David Williams]

1 minute ago, neilcvx said:

We can accept that research into finding a cure for cancer has improved cancer survival rates massively, we can accept that polio has almost been eradicated due to research to find an effective vaccine but some people are unwilling to accept that research into the effectiveness of masks can’t be trusted.

To be honest, we have been told to wear masks and we should. I saw a nice graphic that gave a simple visualisation of one person wearing a mask vs both which was quite good.

However we should not kid ourselves that these are surgical masks and the worry with masks is whether it encourages us to get too close.

But we should do as we are told, it is not about guarantees of prevention, it is about reducing the number of people we transmit the disease to.

These are difficult times, this is not the time to be critical of the message, we should just follow it.

[cvabishop]

Masks are not a panacea but logically anything between the mouth and nose and the outside environment must surely reduce the risk of transmitting infection to some extent.

There seem to be indications (aren't they always indications!) that the risk and severity of infection can be dependent on the  'viral load' transmitted. So if you get a big dose (as may have happened in hospitals) you may suffer more than if you just get a 'glancing blow' which your body may be better able to deal with. (depending of course on your age and vulnerability etc.)

If this is the case then some form of face covering may indeed reduce the degree of infection to a significant effect and if this is the case then masks are definitely worthwhile.

It would be nice to have this confirmed though. Meanwhile, by gut instinct, I am happy to follow the rules.

There is a lot of argument as to whether masks of varying standards do or don't work but the real issue in my view is that there is in reality a trade off between the standard of masks and the environments in which people use them. If you are regularly in close contact with strangers then you need a higher degree of protection (both ways) than if you are in a supermarket at 8am with hardly any other customers in the store.

Edited August 23, 2020 by cvabishop

[David Williams]

I am also amused about how the masks are stored and reused, these are not sterile objects.

I see a number of people in the UK wearing them on the chin and pulling them up when needed.

In France, I see a number of people wearing them on the elbow until needed !

[cvabishop]

In most instances they don't need to be sterile as they are simply being used to reduce the projection of potential virus droplets into the environment. They don't protect the wearer.

[Cassie]

I’ve made several pleated cotton ones. What surprises me is how grubby they get. We only use them for one visit before washing yet the the water they are ( handwashed) in is really dirty. I suspect a lot of it is traffic etc pollution. Presumably this is pollution we are not breathing in so a good thing, virus apart. 

What upsets me is the number of disposible ones just discarded anywhere. 

[neilcvx]

31 minutes ago, David Williams said:

I am also amused about how the masks are stored and reused, these are not sterile objects.

I see a number of people in the UK wearing them on the chin and pulling them up when needed.

In France, I see a number of people wearing them on the elbow until needed !

Even masks kept like that keep others as safe as a sterile one would.

[Khaines]

8 minutes ago, Cassie said:

I’ve made several pleated cotton ones. What surprises me is how grubby they get. We only use them for one visit before washing yet the the water they are ( handwashed) in is really dirty. I suspect a lot of it is traffic etc pollution. Presumably this is pollution we are not breathing in so a good thing, virus apart. 

What upsets me is the number of disposible ones just discarded anywhere. 

Those “disposable” ones can be washed and reused.  I reuse mine, just pour boiling water into a jug with some washing detergent and leave to soak for a few hours, rinse thoroughly and then peg up overnight.  Mine have been washed loads of times, I am getting on with wearing them now, couldn’t stand them at first but pushed on. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Khaines

[adicat]

I guess with schools due back in 2 weeks time in England, parents have to think that if they go away and then a quarantine is imposed on their return, will they he fined for keeping their children out of school for 2 weeks. Especially after 6 months of no school for most. Is it responsible to take children away from now on?

[jonno]

Ah masks...

Riddle me this Batman, if any mask reduces passive transfer, why is Spain & France quarantined again, why has there been 8000 new cases in France in the past two days?

They've worn them in a more compulsory environment than in the U.K. for a longer period.

Masks are about public confidence in order to get everyone into the shops again and a bit of stealthy controlled herd immunity is a good thing.

 

 

[neilcvx]

27 minutes ago, jonno said:

Ah masks...

Riddle me this Batman, if any mask reduces passive transfer, why is Spain & France quarantined again, why has there been 8000 new cases in France in the past two days?

They've worn them in a more compulsory environment than in the U.K. for a longer period.

Masks are about public confidence in order to get everyone into the shops again and a bit of stealthy controlled herd immunity is a good thing.

 

 

Because they have loads of situations where masks aren’t worn and things like bagpipers marching through restaurants an almost non existent social distancing policy at a lot of public events and on public transport and masks weren’t made compulsory in France before most of the UK the opposite is actually true they were made mandatory in shops in Scotland on the 10 th of July and the 18 th of July in France.

Why are some  folk  peddling herd immunity when there’s no evidence how long the antibodies last for .

 

 

 

 

[IanN]

Also no evidence of an effective vaccine any time soon.. I know nothing about virus or vaccine but as I have quoted before after decades of research the flu vaccine is only 40 - 60% effective. So some herd immunity (again I know nothing about this) coupled with a partially effective vaccine may offer some sort of hope for a return to normality 

[Cabin-boy]

Masks might or might not make a difference but it seems wearing clothes certainly does. 

There has been a significant outbreak at a naturist holiday camp in Cap d'Agde in southern France.

https://www.bfmtv.com/sante/covid-19-propagation-tres-preoccupante-du-virus-au-village-naturiste-du-cap-d-agde_AD-202008230124.html

Ed

[Khaines]

45 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

Masks might or might not make a difference but it seems wearing clothes certainly does. 

There has been a significant outbreak at a naturist holiday camp in Cap d'Agde in southern France.

https://www.bfmtv.com/sante/covid-19-propagation-tres-preoccupante-du-virus-au-village-naturiste-du-cap-d-agde_AD-202008230124.html

Ed

Well, the virus DOES go for the mucous membranes - and those north of the naval tend to be the ones we are generally concerned about.  Those south are normally covered up in public.    

[colin]

9 hours ago, jonno said:

Ah masks...

Riddle me this Batman, if any mask reduces passive transfer, why is Spain & France quarantined again, why has there been 8000 new cases in France in the past two days?

They've worn them in a more compulsory environment than in the U.K. for a longer period.

Masks are about public confidence in order to get everyone into the shops again and a bit of stealthy controlled herd immunity is a good thing.

 

 

Mask wearing is flagrantly disrespected. We were committee boat for a Muscadet regatta this weekend. Approx 70 people at the prize giving, with 2 or 3 masks being worn. Competitors from Belgium, Paris, Rennes .... Even the staff at the Trinquette were pulling their masks off all the time.

Human nature is our current problem. The anti mask intelligent people like you stop short of saying they are of zero value. I agree nevertheless that public confidence is an important factor, reminding us all of the risks and hopefully pushing us to minimise them.

Again I agree with your comments about the chances, short term at least, of eradicating this virus, but I still feel that the policy of protecting people as long as possible, whilst vaccines and treatment protocols are being developed, is sensible?

[jonno]

1 hour ago, colin said:

The anti mask intelligent people like you stop short of saying they are of zero value. I agree nevertheless that public confidence is an important factor, reminding us all of the risks and hopefully pushing us to minimise them.

This maybe so Colin but I wear a mask when required and surgical quality products are now readily available. My fear, which in many ways has been vindicated, was the profiteering and exploitation of the general public by those manufacturing a worthless product and selling it at an unreasonable price. Even my local pharmacy are flogging 10 for £5 and the packaging states in big letters that they aren't surgical although they look identical.

People should wear a mask by all means but those who opt for a more designer or fabric style shouldn't be disillusioned into thinking that they make a difference.

[VikingVoyager]

21 minutes ago, jonno said:

People should wear a mask by all means but those who opt for a more designer or fabric style shouldn't be disillusioned into thinking that they make a difference

I think I must have missed the study that backs that up

[Rattler43]

17 hours ago, neilcvx said:

 some people are unwilling to accept that research into the effectiveness of masks can’t be trusted.

The question is what is the research and how robust is it. I just wish that someone could point me in the direction of peer reviewed research accepted for publication in a respected scientific journal that either proves or disproves the benefit or otherwise of masks. To date I have not been able to find any.

11 hours ago, jonno said:

Ah masks...

Riddle me this Batman, if any mask reduces passive transfer, why is Spain & France quarantined again, why has there been 8000 new cases in France in the past two days?

They've worn them in a more compulsory environment than in the U.K. for a longer period.

Masks are about public confidence in order to get everyone into the shops again and a bit of stealthy controlled herd immunity is a good thing.

 

 

I suspect you are right it is all about public confidence and herd immunity still being in the background of government thinking. If it was not so I suspect there would be some standard for masks. Under current regulations I would be "protecting others" by going into a shop with a string vest or a net curtain over my head. 

How effective it is in raising public confidence is another matter. I have not been into a shop since masks were introduced. Not because I don't think they are an advantage or a disadvantage but because I just don't know and they appear to have superseded social distancing. Not shopping is great for the bank balance but unfortunately no good for local shops or employment. 

[neilcvx]

2 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

I think I must have missed the study that backs that up

Recent WHO research done along with the UN have said wearing something is better than nothing plus if you look at the infection rates in most of the countries in Asia that have traditionally worn masks then a lot of them have low Covid rates anyway I’ve bought another one .

https://chooseally.com/

 

[BobCrox]

6 hours ago, IanN said:

Also no evidence of an effective vaccine any time soon.. I know nothing about virus or vaccine but as I have quoted before after decades of research the flu vaccine is only 40 - 60% effective. So some herd immunity (again I know nothing about this) coupled with a partially effective vaccine may offer some sort of hope for a return to normality 

The flu vaccines are 100% effective but there is a basic problem. The makers have to decide months in advance which flu strains they put in the vaccine. They choose  the most likely candidates but other strains can appear after the vaccine has been made. This has been made more difficult with the number of travellers now visiting China.

[neilcvx]

7 minutes ago, Rattler43 said:

The question is what is the research and how robust is it. I just wish that someone could point me in the direction of peer reviewed research accepted for publication in a respected scientific journal that either proves or disproves the benefit or otherwise of masks. To date I have not been able to find any.

I suspect you are right it is all about public confidence and herd immunity still being in the background of government thinking. If it was not so I suspect there would be some standard for masks. Under current regulations I would be "protecting others" by going into a shop with a string vest or a net curtain over my head. 

How effective it is in raising public confidence is another matter. I have not been into a shop since masks were introduced. Not because I don't think they are an advantage or a disadvantage but because I just don't know and they appear to have superseded social distancing. Not shopping is great for the bank balance but unfortunately no good for local shops or employment. 

I’m not sure what more evidence folk need WHO, UN, most western governments, university of Oxford and more all recommending wearing masks but still some folk say “aww there useless because one or two experts say so” , make your judgement based on research not on hearsay , any way masks aren’t going anywhere anytime soon .