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Would you still go away if stayed home 2 weeks?


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Mask wearing certainly brings out strong views. I'm sure in some circumstances they may well be beneficial. What I am yet to be convinced about is whatever the quality of the mask it is better than no mask at all. Seeing how some people wear them under their noses round their necks constantly adjusting them etc it would appear the wearing of the mask to some is more important than how it is done. At some stage I will have to get a mask if only to collect medication from the chemist. There are some recommendations as to mask construction but no standard that certifies any particular mask complies. I'm not anti mask as such and I'm quite happy for anyone to wear a mask if it makes them happy. I am however sceptical that any mask however worn is advantageous and do feel that it gives some people a false sense of security. 

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4 minutes ago, Rattler43 said:

Mask wearing certainly brings out strong views. I'm sure in some circumstances they may well be beneficial. What I am yet to be convinced about is whatever the quality of the mask it is better than no mask at all. Seeing how some people wear them under their noses round their necks constantly adjusting them etc it would appear the wearing of the mask to some is more important than how it is done. At some stage I will have to get a mask if only to collect medication from the chemist. There are some recommendations as to mask construction but no standard that certifies any particular mask complies. I'm not anti mask as such and I'm quite happy for anyone to wear a mask if it makes them happy. I am however sceptical that any mask however worn is advantageous and do feel that it gives some people a false sense of security. 

I fully understand what you're saying Rattler but two wrongs don't make a right. Me, if I'm to interact with an individual and the setting demands a mask and there's is under their nose I'll tell them straight. I don't take the view that "well if they're doing it so will I".

There is a standard for masks, always has been, the wearer just needs to understand what they are. EN14683 is the standard for surgical masks used in hospital environments, you then have FFP, FFP2 & FFP3. The U.S, N95 is a FFP equivalent.

This is an extract from Nuffield Research for the Centre of Evidence Based Medicine, the Oxford University Department of Primary Care Health Sciences which the governments of all four U.K. nations depend.

COVID-19 is spread by four means: contact (direct or via a fomite); droplet infection (droplets from the respiratory tract of an infected individual during coughing or sneezing are transmitted onto a mucosal surface or conjunctiva of a susceptible individual or environmental surfaces); airborne (transmission of infectious agents in small airborne particles, particularly during procedures such as intubation); and faeco-oral.1 2  Coughing and sneezing can generate aerosol particles as well as droplets.

This review considers respiratory protective measures e.g. use of face masks as PPE, to reduce droplet and airborne spread.  It should be noted that in one recent laboratory study, severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19) survived airborne as long as SARS COV-1 (the virus that causes SARS) when artificially aerosolised and persisted longer on some surfaces.3 This finding is relevant because it suggests that deposited particulates may become resuspended i.e. airborne, when disturbed.

TG1.png

The standard surgical mask (left), also known as a fluid-resistant surgical mask (FRSM), is designed to provide a barrier to splashes and droplets impacting on the wearer’s nose, mouth and respiratory tract. It fits fairly loosely to the user’s face. These single-use masks are used for a variety of procedures in community as well as hospital settings. They should be changed when they become moistened or damaged, and should not be undone and dangled round the neck between procedures. It should be worn with eye protection.

 

TG2.png

The respirator mask (left), available in the USA as N95 mask and in the UK as an equivalent FFP (‘filtering face piece’) mask, is used to prevent the user from inhaling small airborne particles in aerosol-generating procedures (AGPs). It must fit tightly to the user’s face.  There are three categories: FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3. FFP3 provides the highest level of protection.  Again, this mask must be worn with eye protection.

 

 

Importantly, masks and respirators should not be considered as isolated interventions. Other protection includes hand hygiene, aprons or gowns, goggles or face shields, and gloves.1 4 5 The World Health Organisation has produced technical specifications for these items, based on simulation exercises using data from past SARS and MERS outbreaks.4

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1 hour ago, jonno said:

I fully understand what you're saying Rattler but two wrongs don't make a right. Me, if I'm to interact with an individual and the setting demands a mask and there's is under their nose I'll tell them straight. I don't take the view that "well if they're doing it so will I".

There is a standard for masks, always has been, the wearer just needs to understand what they are. EN14683 is the standard for surgical masks used in hospital environments, you then have FFP, FFP2 & FFP3. The U.S, N95 is a FFP equivalent.

This is an extract from Nuffield Research for the Centre of Evidence Based Medicine, the Oxford University Department of Primary Care Health Sciences which the governments of all four U.K. nations depend.

COVID-19 is spread by four means: contact (direct or via a fomite); droplet infection (droplets from the respiratory tract of an infected individual during coughing or sneezing are transmitted onto a mucosal surface or conjunctiva of a susceptible individual or environmental surfaces); airborne (transmission of infectious agents in small airborne particles, particularly during procedures such as intubation); and faeco-oral.1 2  Coughing and sneezing can generate aerosol particles as well as droplets.

This review considers respiratory protective measures e.g. use of face masks as PPE, to reduce droplet and airborne spread.  It should be noted that in one recent laboratory study, severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19) survived airborne as long as SARS COV-1 (the virus that causes SARS) when artificially aerosolised and persisted longer on some surfaces.3 This finding is relevant because it suggests that deposited particulates may become resuspended i.e. airborne, when disturbed.

TG1.png

The standard surgical mask (left), also known as a fluid-resistant surgical mask (FRSM), is designed to provide a barrier to splashes and droplets impacting on the wearer’s nose, mouth and respiratory tract. It fits fairly loosely to the user’s face. These single-use masks are used for a variety of procedures in community as well as hospital settings. They should be changed when they become moistened or damaged, and should not be undone and dangled round the neck between procedures. It should be worn with eye protection.

 

TG2.png

The respirator mask (left), available in the USA as N95 mask and in the UK as an equivalent FFP (‘filtering face piece’) mask, is used to prevent the user from inhaling small airborne particles in aerosol-generating procedures (AGPs). It must fit tightly to the user’s face.  There are three categories: FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3. FFP3 provides the highest level of protection.  Again, this mask must be worn with eye protection.

 

 

Importantly, masks and respirators should not be considered as isolated interventions. Other protection includes hand hygiene, aprons or gowns, goggles or face shields, and gloves.1 4 5 The World Health Organisation has produced technical specifications for these items, based on simulation exercises using data from past SARS and MERS outbreaks.4

Thank you very much jonno for the trouble you've taken in your response. My concern is really that the majority of masks on sale don't claim to conform to any standard. I've found a FFP3/N99 mask which I assume would be satisfactory. 

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Queations, questions, question?

Why do surgeons bother to wear masks?

Perhaps to minimise risk of infection during operations

Why do surgeons keep a sensible distance from an open wound?

Perhaps to minimise risk of infection

Why surgeons wash their hands frequently, and especially if they touch their hair or skin

Perhaps to minimise risk of infection

Why are medical staff trained in advanced hygiene

Perhaps so they adopt good hygenic practice and to minimise the risk of infection.

Do you see where I am going with this? Anything to minimise the risk of infection.

Last question - why is the governent not providing more public information on good hygenic practice, it might just help change behaviours

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@GFB of course the advice certainly from the Scottish government is to keep washing your hands , keep wiping down surfaces, and stay 2 metres apart and when circumstances don’t permit social distancing to wear a face covering and to wear it properly , store it properly and wash it (if applicable ) properly,  I think the hygiene thing is the most important part well for me anyway as I avoid crowded places nearly all of the time, one of the benefits of country living , and my mask that I wear now is   a “medical grade efficiency “ one . 

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Sound advice in Scotland then

I live in Wales. Welsh government advice is

  • always observe social distancing
  • wash your hands regularly
  • if you meet another household, outside your extended household, stay outdoors
  • work from home if you can

Masks dismissed on the basis of the 'science', which as we have seen in these posts is open to liberal interpretation, and can be made to fit personal opinion. No masks in enclosed spaces, just meet in the open, perhaps Tesco will set up stalls in the car park. Visited Morriston Hospital (West Wales Major Incident Unit) recently and was staggered that nobody was wearing masks inside the building, and I mean nobody!!

We take the same precautions as you, and are also very rural. We have felt safer in Cotes d'Armor. Wales may be OK now, but we need more preventative action.

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What I cannot understand is the point of visors.  They do not cover under the chin as masks are supposed to and virus droplets could easily be breathed out through the nose downwards.  And could easily be picked up and carried in the air.  People complain about those who walk round with their masks under their nose, but do not visors invalidate the point of wearing one.   I think they are just pretty useless.

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We are on Pont on the 6th my guess from past experience is it will be rammed with snowbirds now children are back at school. We shall be wearing medical grade masks and visors which is the way it should be done to protect the mouth nose and eyes! 

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41 minutes ago, Khaines said:

What I cannot understand is the point of visors.  They do not cover under the chin as masks are supposed to and virus droplets could easily be breathed out through the nose downwards.  And could easily be picked up and carried in the air.  People complain about those who walk round with their masks under their nose, but do not visors invalidate the point of wearing one.   I think they are just pretty useless.

The advise up here was recently changed and bar and shop staff are advised to wear masks and not visors for those very reasons.

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1 hour ago, JohnMustow said:

We are on Pont on the 6th my guess from past experience is it will be rammed with snowbirds now children are back at school. We shall be wearing medical grade masks and visors which is the way it should be done to protect the mouth nose and eyes! 

Whats wrong with snowbirds? Why are medical grade masks and visors needed to protect you from this section of society? 

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2 hours ago, Solo said:

Aren't visors to protect you from droplets and masks to stop you spreading droplets.

I understand the whole point of wearing face coverings was to stop you coming into contact with any droplets and to protect others from any coming from you.  Walk around with a mask with your nose uncovered and you are doing exactly the same as wearing a visor. Yet you can get on a bus with a visor but if you attempt to board one with a mask half on you get told to cover your nose.  I was.  I was waiting at a bus stop in town and I put my mask on, but until I was ready to board I kept it just around my mouth ready to pull up when the bus arrived.  Absentmindedly I forgot and the driver asked me to cover my nose.  Fair enough, and I said whoops and pulled it up.  Sitting already on the bus were two elderly women wearing visors, so whatever they were breathing out probably went all over the neighbouring seats and the backs of the seats in front.  And they could have had droplets falling from their noses into their laps and hands, then touching parts of the bus as they got off.  They were just as likely as me if I had my mask just below my nose to contaminate the bus, yet it was the likes of us mask wearers have to obey what it appears as stricter rules.

 

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I was on the PA Monday/Tuesday this week sailing back from Santander and I was surprised how busy the ferry was (including children) bearing in mind the 14 day UK quarantine.

Everything was open apart from the sit down restaurants, but I was surprised to see that evening entertainment was in full flow in the bar? There were two English guys in there mid 20's who refused to wear a mask when asked in the bar😡, but apart from that very civilized?

BF do have the loading and unloading down to a tee, however there still seems to be congestion within the staircases for the mad rush back to the car!?!? Overall a better way to travel in the current climate versus flying. 

I must say that compared to the CF this is a much nicer and more modern ferry. We hope that next year, where we have booked onto Galicia that this will be a further step up in facilities?

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2 hours ago, IanN said:

Whats wrong with snowbirds? Why are medical grade masks and visors needed to protect you from this section of society? 

Totally agree with you what is wrong with snowbirds?if anything I have seen the older generation are mostly going by the guidelines but afraid the younger ones have a attitude I will not get it.

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3 hours ago, IanN said:

Whats wrong with snowbirds? Why are medical grade masks and visors needed to protect you from this section of society? 

Nothing at all however having travelled from Bilbao via Rosslare to Mallow on to Dublin-Holyhead then Welshpool in Wales to Woolacombe Devon. Departing Plymouth  06/09 for Santander. 10 weeks still safe so cannot afford to loose that now. I suspect there might be 1000 passengers and crew onboard so more people in close proximity than we have seen since last September on the same route. We are both well into our 70’s so can’t afford any slip ups.

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19 hours ago, Khaines said:

What I cannot understand is the point of visors.  They do not cover under the chin as masks are supposed to and virus droplets could easily be breathed out through the nose downwards.  And could easily be picked up and carried in the air.  People complain about those who walk round with their masks under their nose, but do not visors invalidate the point of wearing one.   I think they are just pretty useless.

Try wearing mask with glasses and then moving around getting heartrate and breathing up. Useless, can't see a damn thing and you are forever touching your face to sort the mask out. Visors which do go below your chin do not soak up droplets so no chance like mask of contaminating yourself, you can see the persons face as well which is far more normal.

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21 minutes ago, adicat said:

Try wearing mask with glasses and then moving around getting heartrate and breathing up. Useless, can't see a damn thing and you are forever touching your face to sort the mask out. Visors which do go below your chin do not soak up droplets so no chance like mask of contaminating yourself, you can see the persons face as well which is far more normal.

I am actually meant to wear glasses, but the reason I don’t is for the same reasons I found it hard to get used to wearing masks in the first place, cannot abide anything across my nose - I even cannot bear make up, so I don’t wear any,  With visors, it is more the case of the wearer contaminating the area they are in from breathing down through the nose.  Droplets can fall from the nose and it is for this reason that masks go under their chins - to catch any of their droplets.  I just object to wearing a stuffy mask when others can have some kind of air flow to their faces with visors.

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4 minutes ago, IanN said:

Is being shut off from the rest of the world normal? 

It must be when being connected kills people. Wait out the worst and re-connect when this is passed. With strong internet connections and emergency only movement such as off Island hospital appointments etc IoM will survive just fine.

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3 minutes ago, IanN said:

Is being shut off from the rest of the world normal? 

I wouldn't say the Island is "shut off from the rest of the world" (we have an air bridge with Guernsey 😄!!!) - normal arrivals of freight and food as usual. I am sure the Island at some stage will succumb to the virus again if as predicted it will still be here for the next four years.

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21 minutes ago, Manxscorpio said:

I wouldn't say the Island is "shut off from the rest of the world" (we have an air bridge with Guernsey 😄!!!) - normal arrivals of freight and food as usual. I am sure the Island at some stage will succumb to the virus again if as predicted it will still be here for the next four years.

I really hope not but I don't think it going anywhere soon.

This forum seems to have a wide spectrum of views and attitudes on the pandemic and how to handle it which is very welcome and informative. 

I guess I am somewhere in the middle not keen on isolation but also keen to avoid crowded places or places where I have no control  over social distancing. A ferry crossing is I think 90% OK. The concern for me is getting from and to the Car deck.

Sorry my original comment was a bit blunt it could have been expressed much better. The same to John re snowbirds (My wife and I also fall into that category and were on the equivalent PA crossing last year so I know exactly what John means)

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1 hour ago, adicat said:

Try wearing mask with glasses and then moving around getting heartrate and breathing up. Useless, can't see a damn thing and you are forever touching your face to sort the mask out. Visors which do go below your chin do not soak up droplets so no chance like mask of contaminating yourself, you can see the persons face as well which is far more normal.

I wear a blue surgical mask and my specs most days, you get used to it. Shape the nose piece in place before looping it over your ears.

Many, many hospital staff wear a mask(s) routinely during their shift and have done for donkeys years, many wear specs too. It's not a new phenomena. The FFP grade masks are worse if not fitted around the nose correctly.

Droplets are airborne, they get under the visor which is why staff wear both

27 minutes ago, IanN said:

The concern for me is getting from and to the Car deck.

With your mask on you'll be fine plus up the stair case you'll be facing someone's back. Every person you come across on board wandering around, both crew and passengers, will be wearing a facemask and tables in the cafe/restaurant are spaced for self distancing.If preferred pay for your choice of food and simply return to your cabin.

My guidance for what it's worth? Use your own sanitiser everytime you touch any object which isn't your property and buy a quality hand cream.

Personally I've found that ferry travel is well controlled and well supervised. We travelled on 6 ferries in July.

 

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26 minutes ago, jonno said:

I wear a blue surgical mask and my specs most days, you get used to it. Shape the nose piece in place before looping it over your ears.

Many, many hospital staff wear a mask(s) routinely during their shift and have done for donkeys years, many wear specs too. It's not a new phenomena. The FFP grade masks are worse if not fitted around the nose correctly.

Droplets are airborne, they get under the visor which is why staff wear both

With your mask on you'll be fine plus up the stair case you'll be facing someone's back. Every person you come across on board wandering around, both crew and passengers, will be wearing a facemask and tables in the cafe/restaurant are spaced for self distancing.If preferred pay for your choice of food and simply return to your cabin.

My guidance for what it's worth? Use your own sanitiser everytime you touch any object which isn't your property and buy a quality hand cream.

Personally I've found that ferry travel is well controlled and well supervised. We travelled on 6 ferries in July.

 

Concern was not really the right word highest risk area would be more appropriate. Anyway we have decided to keep our snowbird crossing on the Cap next Wednesday. Outboard cabin right at the back on Deck 8 next to the Planet Bar so will spend our time there, if it gets uncomfortably busy we can easily move back to the cabin. Plan to eat in the salad bar. No way will I spend the crossing in the cabin we only usually use it for storage and sleep.

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