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Initial thoughts of Galicia (10th Dec)


Northern_Si
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19 minutes ago, Solo said:

All this talk of charging on the ferry, where do you think the Electric comes from?  A bloody great Diesel engine, that's really green!

Never mind the ferry, where will it magically come from when we all have to drive electrical vehicles? 

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3 minutes ago, colinschandler said:

Never mind the ferry, where will it magically come from when we all have to drive electrical vehicles? 

We're going off topic here.  I agree Colin, I feel the jump is being made to quickly to electric, are there other options?  I think if the engineers were told to make Diesel or Petrol greener by 2030, they would make engines that go 100plus miles to the gallon, as it is now there no incentive to make a really efficient engine, yes I know oil is running out but we should use what we have efficiently.

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1 minute ago, Solo said:

they would make engines that go 100plus miles to the gallon

I like a lot of your posts but that is one of the funniest things I have heard all year. Unless of course you have proper proof of going beyond theoretical limits while being practical, when I will certainly take it back.

35 minutes ago, colinschandler said:

Never mind the ferry, where will it magically come from when we all have to drive electrical vehicles? 

Please read the National Grid's documentation on the grid and electric cars. In summary, generators and the electrical grid can cope now. But what do they know having been planning for changes to energy supplies for years.

Continuing OT for the moment, the current electricity generation mix this afternoon was 

Wind 31%
Solar 0.3% (not surprisingly on this bright and glorious day)
Nuclear 16.2%
Hydro 1.3%
Zero emmission total 48.8%

Gas 34.6%
Coal 2.4%
Biomass 6.0%
Emission sources 43%

Indeterminate sources
Import 7.6%
Storage 0.2%

And never mind the green factors, using wind /solar where possible improves energy security, can democratise energy and improves general air quality for all. 

To bring back towards topic, would you rather stand on the exhaust filled car deck, or on the clean air car deck of electric vehicles. "Mmmm, these car deck fumes are one of the highlights for our trip. I must keep poisoning myself for a good holiday."

In addition to cars, electric ferries are certainly going to appear on shorter routes, IoW easily possible today, IoM, Irish Sea, Dover Calais possible in next couple of years with some design work. On current progress in a decade BF routes across the Channel will certainly be possible, but with BF's current investments unlikely. However that could be a vector for a competitor to enter the market with very low cost of operation. But all this is a new thread if anyone is interested?

Back to Galicia, for longer voyages that she is intended for, then a low probability for a while and sensible investment.

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34 minutes ago, Shipping Forecast said:

Unless of course you have proper proof of going beyond theoretical limits while being practical, when I will certainly take it back.

I'm no engineer but I know that most problems put to them they have solved, at the moment they are being told don't work on developing more efficient internal combustion engines, who knows what they could do if given the incentive.

Personally I'd like to see all cars fitted with a universal battery that can be easily changed, you could then have service stations where you drive in have your battery changed and drive on, these service stations could have solar/wind farms attached to do the charging.  Pipe dream or the future, I don't know.

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Personally I'd like to see all cars fitted with a universal battery that can be easily changed, you could then have service stations where you drive in have your battery changed and drive on, these service stations could have solar/wind farms attached to do the charging.  Pipe dream or the future, I don't know.

Yes, but that rather presupposes that all cars will be the same size really. A battery for a large family car needs to be bigger than one for  a city runabout.

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1 hour ago, Solo said:

I'm no engineer but I know that most problems put to them they have solved, at the moment they are being told don't work on developing more efficient internal combustion engines, who knows what they could do if given the incentive.

From last information I had Daimler, BMW, VW Group and Land Rover are still continuing ICE development. If this efficiency was possible then to mitigate the change to electric vehicles they would have done it. EVs are causing the car industry a massive headache at the moment and costing them a lot of money.

Also, why would VW et al put in cheat devices and fiddle the figures if all this was possible for standard cars? I would be very wary of any claims especially from two industries under enormous pressure with some looking more likely to fail than continue.

From a practical point of view there are theoretical limits to using any combustion based engine coming from the energy available in the fuel and the combustion process. After that it is down to vehicle design from aerodynamics / drag and vehicle mass, to how the energy from the combustion process is used / delivered to the road which would make a car of 100 mpg very unlikely unless you are willing to go very basic in a small box going slowly.

The other advantage of electric vehicles is that there are far more efficient over the complete energy cycle. Of 1 kW generated over 90% goes into the car. Fuel efficiency on ICE cars does not account for all the energy used to process the fuel, ship to the forecourt, dispense etc and is left out of the equation when comparing fuel types. It is not a straightforward comparison. This also applies to the hydrogen too.

There is an enormous shift in power happening and unfortunately not the current companies are going to make it in one piece.

1 hour ago, Solo said:

Personally I'd like to see all cars fitted with a universal battery that can be easily changed, you could then have service stations where you drive in have your battery changed and drive on, these service stations could have solar/wind farms attached to do the charging.  Pipe dream or the future, I don't know.

In China, India and other Asian countries there are various schemes for swappable batteries, mostly for scooters, motorbikes etc. Scooter / bike batteries are about the size a motorbike fuel can and you lift it out, place in charger, and then given another battery to put in.

China does have car battery swap schemes, NIO has done over 1m car battery swaps of different battery sizes. But this adds complexity to the process moving 0.5 ton batteries around and more chance of mechanical error. Cable and plug is very simple with little to go wrong.

The one major downside to swappable batteries is infrastructure and travel area limitations. The worst that happens if you need power is plug it into a 3 pin wall socket and they, with their 2 pin cousins are everywhere worldwide.

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23 hours ago, Solo said:

I'm no engineer but I know that most problems put to them they have solved, at the moment they are being told don't work on developing more efficient internal combustion engines, who knows what they could do if given the incentive.

to be fair, they have had several decades of ICE development - the final few being explicitly driven by CO2 emissions and, to be fair again, they made great progress but as SF points out, limits are being reached and, ultimately, this isn't about petro chemicals running out it's about producing energy without he CO2.

Wind and solar allow us to do that though we can't practically run cars from them without a battery!

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On 16/12/2020 at 16:01, Solo said:

All this talk of charging on the ferry, where do you think the Electric comes from?  A bloody great Diesel engine, that's really green!

If you are that worried about the ferry's diesel engines you probably wouldn't be on the ferry in the first place. Get your sackcloth robe on and join all the other hypocritical 'greens' round the campfire.

It is not about all or nothing, but the best use of resources. Ferries will be powered by some form of petrochemical fuel for a while so unless you are going to do a Greta and sail across and bung the car in the dinghy behind, then you are stuck with ferries or tunnelling it which is greener but if it involves extra travel to get there arguably just as polluting.

On Galicia with her 50MW of electricity generation capability, a few kW or even a 1 MW in the percentage of total output is not huge and could be 'greener' than alternative supplies in the UK. Not France however as they have one of the cleanest grids in the world due to their love of atoms. The whole 'green' cycle needs to be looked at, not just a selective part.

Personally I prefer to live where there is not a toxic petrochemical exhaust smog smothering us to a slow wheezy death and electric cars are a part of the way of doing this. Take a GA flight to see the orangey brown layer hanging over the country.

As above host of other benefits too, CO2 being just one of them. Another great benefit now being seen is the latest renewables installations are producing cheaper electricity than traditional fossil fuel plants. "Ah no, I want to pay more whenever I can and pollute the environment as well."

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On 15/12/2020 at 21:19, colinschandler said:

What would happen if the customer had specific medical or religious dietary requirements and was unable to take on board meals. I there a non-meal option?

I think this is a very valid point - some people are vegetarian or vegan too and sometimes BF have catered very poorly to these segments in my opinion. I know it’s not a typically French thing to cater for but if you’re going to include the meals then they must be suitable for everyone and more importantly give choice with as many options as meat.

I think considering the meals are included then BF should be able to publish a menu in advance and have a wide choice.

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3 hours ago, Rattler43 said:

We can if we use the power to convert water to hydrogen and then use that to power the car.

Hydrogen is a lot less efficient than electricity when you take the whole fuel cycle from manufacture to final result like wheel on road. 

"After converting electricity to hydrogen, shipping it and storing it, then converting it back to electricity in a fuel cell, the delivered energy can be below 30% of what was in the initial electricity input." IEA Hydrogen Report 2019

Lets waste 2/3 of the electricity produced to do a pointless exercise instead of using that 2/3 usefully in car batteries etc. Or, in another way, we will need 3 times are much power production just to stay level with hydrogen. The UK is not in a good place now with generation capacity and France is looking at how it moves on from the current generation of nuclear power. It is estimated (IPCC, IEA amongst others) that we would need 35-40% more electrical generation capacity than is available today to produce enough hydrogen to replace 25% of current energy demand.

It is also a pain to store (bulky tanks, hydrogen embrittlement), worse than traditional hydrocarbons to use (cryogenic, extremely flammable) and very expensive to manufacture. So you pay more to get less whether in cars, home heating or otherwise. There are specialist uses but not needed in most areas as better alternatives available.

The Hydrogen economy is the incumbent fuel and vehicle industries desperately trying to keep their role and save the businesses. Most of the hydrogen would come from blue hydrogen (IEA - 76% from methane and 23% from coal) aka dirty hydrogen. Current worldwide hydrogen production has the same CO2 footprint as Germany (IEA). Total greenwashing. It will change when we build 200% more renewable generation than we need to supply the all that hydrogen fuel.

Electricity especially renewables, gives people choice and democratises energy from own generation, through micro and macro grids to removing energy power control from a few people and countries. Hydrogen just moves a few players on and off the field but maintains the status quo.

For a final comparison at the end of 2019 globally there were a grand total 11,000 hydrogen vehicles, compared to over 7 million electric vehicles.

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Just to reaffirm ... I do like the new ship and the new ship smell was lovely. 


One embarrassing thing they did forget in reception was a collection thing for the Société Nationale de Sauvetage en Mer.  I give monthly to the RNLI and want to give to their poorer cousin when I travel with BF. I think I will find one on my return leg. 

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3 hours ago, Northern_Si said:


One embarrassing thing they did forget in reception was a collection thing for the Société Nationale de Sauvetage en Mer.  I give monthly to the RNLI and want to give to their poorer cousin when I travel with BF. I think I will find one on my return leg. 

I hope you are sucessful. It was in June last year when 3 volunteers, of this organisation, lost their lives rescuing a trawler in trouble, in storm a just off the coast of Sable-d`Olonne for which they were posthumously awarded the Legion D`Honeur. A very worthy cause and I hope we find one on all the fleet for next year.

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3 hours ago, Northern_Si said:

Just to reaffirm ... I do like the new ship and the new ship smell was lovely. 


One embarrassing thing they did forget in reception was a collection thing for the Société Nationale de Sauvetage en Mer.  I give monthly to the RNLI and want to give to their poorer cousin when I travel with BF. I think I will find one on my return leg. 

What is the sense of space like wandering round on Gal? On Pont Aven, you (well, I), can happily spend hours wandering round without getting bored. There is plenty of outside and inside space, and things to explore. Cap on the other hand I find far more limited. She simply doesn't feel as big. I wonder what Gal was like in comparison, seeing she's a similar GRT to Pont, but obviously very different configuration! 

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5 hours ago, hf_uk said:

What is the sense of space like wandering round on Gal? On Pont Aven, you (well, I), can happily spend hours wandering round without getting bored. There is plenty of outside and inside space, and things to explore. Cap on the other hand I find far more limited. She simply doesn't feel as big. I wonder what Gal was like in comparison, seeing she's a similar GRT to Pont, but obviously very different configuration! 

I didn’t get outside ... it was a tad cold in Portsmouth when we departed and movement were restricted on the next day. 
 

She is much wider than the Cap and feels to have more random seating than the Pont. I don’t miss the lack of a show bar as it isn’t my thing. 

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I commented earlier about how much wider the Galicia vehicle ramp looked than the ghastly CF one which is a bit nerve- wracking for motorhomers.


I gather, though have not had this confirmed, that several motorhomer got stuck and various bits were ripped off their underside because of the layout at the top of the ramp. 
 

Does anyone know more ?

Re electric charging points for cars: we were advised that we must not use our small low wattage travel kettle on board as the CF electrics could not cope with the extra load.

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12 hours ago, Cassie said:

I commented earlier about how much wider the Galicia vehicle ramp looked than the ghastly CF one which is a bit nerve- wracking for motorhomers.


I gather, though have not had this confirmed, that several motorhomer got stuck and various bits were ripped off their underside because of the layout at the top of the ramp. 
 

Does anyone know more ?

Re electric charging points for cars: we were advised that we must not use our small low wattage travel kettle on board as the CF electrics could not cope with the extra load.

It will not be a problem at the moment!

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15 hours ago, Cassie said:

I commented earlier about how much wider the Galicia vehicle ramp looked than the ghastly CF one which is a bit nerve- wracking for motorhomers.


I gather, though have not had this confirmed, that several motorhomer got stuck and various bits were ripped off their underside because of the layout at the top of the ramp. 
 

Does anyone know more ?

Re electric charging points for cars: we were advised that we must not use our small low wattage travel kettle on board as the CF electrics could not cope with the extra load.


We boarded through the bow doors at Portsmouth.  Ramps are much wider than the Cap and Pont. We parked on a suspended car deck. (Deck 6) with lorries and motorhomes parked on deck 5. I was amazed with the available room. 
 

They did have an issue lowering deck 6 at Santander (I think someone forgot to read the manual) but we didn’t see any issues with campers. 

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On the electric front, does anyone know what the standard Voltage/Hz most ferries run on?  Surely that will be the sticking point? My knowledge of charging and electric differences is limited but I just wonder without the standard 240v we have on land, will these chargers be compatible with varying voltages etc?

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36 minutes ago, 5_ShortBlasts said:

On the electric front, does anyone know what the standard Voltage/Hz most ferries run on?  Surely that will be the sticking point? My knowledge of charging and electric differences is limited but I just wonder without the standard 240v we have on land, will these chargers be compatible with varying voltages etc?

Pleased to see you back hope things are looking up for you.

Ian

(way off topic please move if required)

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