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Possible Revival of Rosslare-Le Havre


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Sounds indeed like the rivalry between Haute and Basse Normandie is not dead yet despite the reunification... 

My brother-in-law used to live near Ouistreham and worked as communications manager for the job centre in Caen but covered all of Lower Normandy. They merged with Upper Normandy last year and his offi

Just had a play around with possible timetables for such a service.  Alternate weekday sailings to Dunkerque would not be possible, two of them would need to be on consecutive days.  But a service tha

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26 minutes ago, RickOShea said:

Could we not see NORMANDIE or CONNEMARA diverted to a Rosslare - Le Havre route?  Maybe even BARFLEUR?

Of course all we know so far is that BF is looking at offering extra Ireland - France services.  The route may turn out not to be Rosslare - Le Havre, but maybe bringing forward plans for Rosslare - Cherbourg.

I had assumed that any such “new route” will be freight-only.  BF has already doubled its Cork-Roscoff passenger provision this year, and the Eire-France passenger market seems to be pretty well taken care of between BF at Cork, Stena at Rosslare and IF at Dublin doesn’t It?  Especially with passenger travel likely to be suppressed this year.

Seems to me that the demand for extra provision is coming from freight looking to avoid the landbridge; certainly it’s freight that was the driver behind the DFDS initiative at Dunkerque.

So surely it’s unlikely that BF would want to divert any of its passenger fleet for this, from the commitments they already have pencilled in for this year.

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30 minutes ago, RickOShea said:

Could we not see NORMANDIE or CONNEMARA diverted to a Rosslare - Le Havre route?  Maybe even BARFLEUR?

If the Visentinis aren't free wouldn't not make more sense to put Cotentin on it (if permissible) and bring back Barfy to Poole?Not sure Barfleur is quick enough to do the Irish route in enough time? The Zeebrugge prides would also be too slow if we're comparing to the speed of the current Dunkirk vessels. 

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BF might be realising that passenger traffic this summer will be very much down on a baseline/normal scenario so doing a bit more in the freight market is worth a shot. 

If we look at the speed the Stena Horizon has been operated at in recent months (I presume even before the current engine trouble), I am not sure the Prides would at such a disadvantage (although it is true that Le Havre is a good bit further than Cherbourg).  That said, the operating conditions limitations mentioned previously would seem significant-

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I'm not sure why there is any talk at all concerning passengers. All the news (from the horse's mouth) is about freight. It would make no sense at all to put a passenger orientated ship on the route, other than, they have no alternative ships. They just need enough amenities for the drivers.

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8 minutes ago, Danim24 said:

I'm not sure why there is any talk at all concerning passengers. All the news (from the horse's mouth) is about freight. It would make no sense at all to put a passenger orientated ship on the route, other than, they have no alternative ships. They just need enough amenities for the drivers.

Exactly.  And not many of them, if the freight is unaccompanied.  For freight, it hardly matters how fast the ship is (especially if Rick’s right about the port possibly being Cherbourg).  They’ll still only get one crossing per day out of the ship, regardless of how long she takes.

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Replying to Danim, I suppose it is because it is not very obvious what freight focussed ship they have available. That leaves a discussion about what is most suitable passenger orientated ship, although it will be transport mostly/only freight. 

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Just now, lg12 said:

I suppose it is because it is not very obvious what freight focussed ship they have available. That leaves a discussion about what is most suitable passenger orientated ship.

Well they don’t have any passenger ships’s available either (assuming the published timetables from March actually happen).  Hence the discussion about the possible available freight ships, and the recently-arrived pair on the Fal in particular.

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Unless there are COVID miracles in the next 4 months, I struggle to believe we will see a normal (passenger) summer timetable happen. The airline industry has already been realistic with expected European traffic down by 60-70% (and lots of flights and routes cut accordingly). I might be wrong but I doubt the passenger ferry business will be that much different, especially as we watch more travel restrictions introduced. 

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38 minutes ago, Gareth said:

I had assumed that any such “new route” will be freight-only.  BF has already doubled its Cork-Roscoff passenger provision this year, and the Eire-France passenger market seems to be pretty well taken care of between BF at Cork, Stena at Rosslare and IF at Dublin doesn’t It?  Especially with passenger travel likely to be suppressed this year.

Seems to me that the demand for extra provision is coming from freight looking to avoid the landbridge; certainly it’s freight that was the driver behind the DFDS initiative at Dunkerque.

So surely it’s unlikely that BF would want to divert any of its passenger fleet for this, from the commitments they already have pencilled in for this year.

All true but to my mind, right now they won't be thinking of summer but next week, or even better tomorrow, or even better today 😛

 

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28 minutes ago, Danim24 said:

I'm not sure why there is any talk at all concerning passengers. All the news (from the horse's mouth) is about freight. It would make no sense at all to put a passenger orientated ship on the route, other than, they have no alternative ships. They just need enough amenities for the drivers.

To a point you are right but the dynamics aren't just Brexit but Covid.

As we have seen from ICG switching WB YEATS to France and the problems DFDS are facing with their assortment of hired tonnage, you need a driver per cabin right now.  So say the NORMANDIE will fewer lane metres, might actually be a more profitable option than a Visentini as she could carry 100% accompanied freight with enough to give the drivers a few cabins each!

And the dominant trade / opportunity here is accompanied stuff that normally uses the UK landbridge.

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4 minutes ago, lg12 said:

Good point! So what can BF come up with in a week or two 😀? It won't be the stored P&O ships for sure. 

Delay Connemara's maintenance?

Anything is possible...but it needs to be a ship with enough lane metres and enough cabins.  Hence my suggestion that NORMANDIE would be perfect (well perfect is too strong but a good option in circumstances).  I think it's reliable to guess Caen traffic is well down at present so she could either not be replaced or ARMORIQUE may be sufficient for there.

 

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6 minutes ago, RickOShea said:

To a point you are right but the dynamics aren't just Brexit but Covid.

As we have seen from ICG switching WB YEATS to France and the problems DFDS are facing with their assortment of hired tonnage, you need a driver per cabin right now.  So say the NORMANDIE will fewer lane metres, might actually be a more profitable option than a Visentini as she could carry 100% accompanied freight with enough to give the drivers a few cabins each!

 

Maybe it is a naive question but are drivers on Stena and IF getting their own cabins these days? Weren't there just reports in this forum around Christmas here complaining about the shared cabins (with no en-suites) on the Galicia.

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2 minutes ago, lg12 said:

Maybe it is a naive question but are drivers on Stena and IF getting their own cabins these days? Weren't there just reports in this forum around Christmas here complaining about the shared cabins (with no en-suites) on the Galicia.

Due to the current Covid situation, right now I am not aware of any routes where drivers are being asked to share cabins.  (Only exception may be where two drivers are travelling in the one vehicle).

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Thanks RickOShea. I saw Freightlink.co.uk still listing "berth in a shared cabin" but I suppose they have just not updated their systems. 

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3 hours ago, Gareth said:

Interestingly, there is precedent for that.  When P&O first branched into Rosslare - Cherbourg, they used the former Dover - Zeebrugge ship European Clearway (renamed).  So using European Seaway would just be the next generation of that move.  I suspect there would need to be ramp modifications, and I’m not sure how they dealt with twin-level loading at Rosslare.  But for a freight service, yes, the former P&O Dover ships would do a job.

there is a twin loading berth in rosslare...irish ferries 'isle of innismore' is a twin loader ...

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13 minutes ago, mr.t said:

there is a twin loading berth in rosslare...irish ferries 'isle of innismore' is a twin loader ...

Yes, indeed.  I was referring back to 2000ish, when the P&O service with Clearway started.  Couldn’t remember if they had one back then.

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6 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

but is there in Le Havre?

Yes, there is.

Has been since 1985 actually, when the first double-decker was built for the jumboised SVs.  The current berth has always been twin-loading, despite being constructed for the Olau twins.  Not sure to what extent the second deck has been used much - don’t know if Etretat uses it? (Don’t think she does at Portsmouth).  Maybe it’s only been used by MSM and Normandie when they had their brief diversion there back whenever it was. (2014 give or take a year, at a guess).

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posted on irish ferries forum earlier today..that irish ferries  Epsilon may be joining the french run at the weekend  with w.b.yeats...and the chartered P&O Stena Forecaster has not made a crossing since Sunday on dublin liverpool route...

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59 minutes ago, RickOShea said:

Anything is possible...but it needs to be a ship with enough lane metres and enough cabins.  Hence my suggestion that NORMANDIE would be perfect (well perfect is too strong but a good option in circumstances).  I think it's reliable to guess Caen traffic is well down at present so she could either not be replaced or ARMORIQUE may be sufficient for there.

 

I think the Seaway has 200 beds (presumably in 100 cabins). Not a bad start, assuming she could be used. 

Who's to say that Britain - NI traffic isn't so light that P&O might also be able to free up Causeway, Highlander, Norbay or Norbank... (while we are idly speculating!)

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22 minutes ago, mr.t said:

posted on irish ferries forum earlier today..that irish ferries  Epsilon may be joining the french run at the weekend  with w.b.yeats...and the chartered P&O Stena Forecaster has not made a crossing since Sunday on dublin liverpool route...

It's not "may be" it's a fact https://www.facebook.com/derrybros/posts/3014361722129998 EPSILON is sailing Dublin - Cherbourg on Friday and back Saturday.

 

As well as STENA FORECASTER, CLIPPER PENNANT has been in drydock since the Christmas period.

By contrast, NI - GB traffic levels are getting back to normal and possibly even attracting NI bound freight that normally uses Dublin.  Seatruck has added an extra Warrenpoint roundtrip this weekend https://www.facebook.com/derrybros/posts/3015893338643503

 

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  • Gareth changed the title to Le Havre / Ireland ?
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