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Possible Revival of Rosslare-Le Havre


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15 minutes ago, LHCity said:

The scenario that I imagine if BF ever had to do it, is to reduce the offer to Ouistreham (or 3 departures per day is no longer justified), to transfer NORMANDIE to Le Havre / Portsmouth and consequently to send COTENTIN to Le Havre / Rosslare.

Love your enthusiasm LHC, but will your ideas/proposals always involve a reduction of the Ouistreham service?

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Sounds indeed like the rivalry between Haute and Basse Normandie is not dead yet despite the reunification... 

My brother-in-law used to live near Ouistreham and worked as communications manager for the job centre in Caen but covered all of Lower Normandy. They merged with Upper Normandy last year and his offi

Just had a play around with possible timetables for such a service.  Alternate weekday sailings to Dunkerque would not be possible, two of them would need to be on consecutive days.  But a service tha

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If 3 departures a day was no longer justified on the Ouistreham route then I think the clue would be that BF would stop operating 3 departures a day.  They don’t need to move one of the ships to the Le Havre route to achieve that - they could just send one of the ships to join the lay-up party.  The fact that BF continues to operate 2 ships on a 3-daily-sailings schedule rather implies that BF considers them to be justified.

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5 minutes ago, Gareth said:

If 3 departures a day was no longer justified on the Ouistreham route then I think the clue would be that BF would stop operating 3 departures a day.  They don’t need to move one of the ships to the Le Havre route to achieve that - they could just send one of the ships to join the lay-up party.  The fact that BF continues to operate 2 ships on a 3-daily-sailings schedule rather implies that BF considers them to be justified.

It is a question of distribution between the territories. In France, regional planning is a central subject. Otherwise, the Seine Maritime department would not finance almost entirely the Dieppe Newhaven route 😉

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41 minutes ago, Gareth said:

If 3 departures a day was no longer justified on the Ouistreham route then I think the clue would be that BF would stop operating 3 departures a day.  They don’t need to move one of the ships to the Le Havre route to achieve that - they could just send one of the ships to join the lay-up party.  The fact that BF continues to operate 2 ships on a 3-daily-sailings schedule rather implies that BF considers them to be justified.

It was  interesting that at the start of the Pandemic, BF had one ship to Ouistreham and one to Cherbourg, this winter (before the UK Government starting spending), they chose 2 ships to Ouistreham with one in freight only. Having multiple crossings on the same route helps unaccompanied trailers as there are multiple sailings to put them on.

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59 minutes ago, LHCity said:

It is a question of distribution between the territories. In France, regional planning is a central subject. Otherwise, the Seine Maritime department would not finance almost entirely the Dieppe Newhaven route 😉

Three lines which sum up quite neatly why nobody ever understands how or why decisions are made in France, including those directly affected by them. 

😉

Ed

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4 hours ago, VikingVoyager said:

Are we sure that Norbay / Norbank would though?

As for as I know they would as they meet the tighter restrictions - not the Class restriction on the PRIDE OF BRUGES for example;

|100A1 FERRY:NORTH SEA AND ENGLISH CHANNEL SERVICE BETWEEN THE LIMITS OF NEWCASTLE TO RIVER ELBE AND PLYMOUTH TO BREST CR:MOVABLE DECK
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5 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

Three lines which sum up quite neatly why nobody ever understands how or why decisions are made in France, including those directly affected by them. 

😉

Ed

The extreme organisation of the territory is cultural in France. Otherwise, I grant you, we should group down Dieppe and Ouistreham and concentrate everything in the middle;-). End of off topic 🙂

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7 hours ago, nick hall said:

Love your enthusiasm LHC, but will your ideas/proposals always involve a reduction of the Ouistreham service?

Sounds indeed like the rivalry between Haute and Basse Normandie is not dead yet despite the reunification... 

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8 hours ago, crechbleiz said:

Sounds indeed like the rivalry between Haute and Basse Normandie is not dead yet despite the reunification... 

My brother-in-law used to live near Ouistreham and worked as communications manager for the job centre in Caen but covered all of Lower Normandy. They merged with Upper Normandy last year and his office was switched to Rouen with two managers still covering their respective areas but forced to be in the office at least twice a week. He couldn't be bothered to drive all that way just for meetings so asked where else in France a position was available. He's now living down in St Raphael on the Med, with an office in Frejus and the beach a 10-minute drive away. 

Ed

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13 hours ago, RickOShea said:

As for as I know they would as they meet the tighter restrictions - not the Class restriction on the PRIDE OF BRUGES for example;

|100A1 FERRY:NORTH SEA AND ENGLISH CHANNEL SERVICE BETWEEN THE LIMITS OF NEWCASTLE TO RIVER ELBE AND PLYMOUTH TO BREST CR:MOVABLE DECK

Rick, if P&O did open a Le Havre - Ireland route, do you think they might be tempted to use Dublin rather than Rosslare?  As you’ve said a few times, Rosslare might be approaching capacity, and P&O already have a base at Dublin.

Mind you, the benefit of Rosslare is being able to operate daily sailings in each direction using 2 ships.  The passage time to Dublin would be approaching 24 hours, so a schedule of that simplicity would not be possible.

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1 hour ago, Cabin-boy said:

He couldn't be bothered to drive all that way just for meetings so asked where else in France a position was available. He's now living down in St Raphael on the Med, with an office in Frejus and the beach a 10-minute drive away. 

Let me guess, he's complained to his union about this per standard procedure .

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54 minutes ago, Chef said:

Let me guess, he's complained to his union about this per standard procedure .

No. He didn't bother wasting time with them. He packed his  swimming trunks and flip-flops and headed south before anyone else realised what was happening. 

Ed

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2 hours ago, Gareth said:

Rick, if P&O did open a Le Havre - Ireland route, do you think they might be tempted to use Dublin rather than Rosslare?  As you’ve said a few times, Rosslare might be approaching capacity, and P&O already have a base at Dublin.

Mind you, the benefit of Rosslare is being able to operate daily sailings in each direction using 2 ships.  The passage time to Dublin would be approaching 24 hours, so a schedule of that simplicity would not be possible.

You almost answer your own question there :)

In principle it would make more sense for P&O to operate an Irish route from Dublin but if it is to be Le Havre - which seems the betting here even if we are still talking rumours and hypotheticals as although there is a lot of noise in Irish Sea circles reliable detail is still lacking (why can't we get a Tweet from a President when we need one 😛 - for me Dublin would probably prove challenging to offer an anyway decent schedule.

 

Rosslare with two ships would allow a daily sailing each way at the same time.

What if - and being totally random here - P&O did a DFDS and operated Calais - Rosslare?  No basis for that, just a thought bubble.

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12 minutes ago, RickOShea said:

 

What if - and being totally random here - P&O did a DFDS and operated Calais - Rosslare?  No basis for that, just a thought bubble.

Is there a suitable link span in Calais?

 

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Would there be any sense in P&O, or any other new operator, starting from scratch in Le Havre with a route that might only be short term, when BF who already operate there seem to have dismissed it.  It would make more sense for P&O to operate from a port they are already set up in, the problem then is can they use Dover and the Dover ships would not be able to do the Irish routes.

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1 hour ago, RickOShea said:

What if - and being totally random here - P&O did a DFDS and operated Calais - Rosslare?  No basis for that, just a thought bubble.

Or, what about (to continue the thought experiment) Dublin - Zeebrugge?  They already have established freight operations at both ports.  And once the passage time gets up to 24 hours (meaning that daily sailings are not possible), a few hours more than 24 probably doesn’t matter that much for a freight service.

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5 minutes ago, Gareth said:

a few hours more than 24 probably doesn’t matter that much for a freight service.

Not if it's unaccompanied, no.  But having drivers sitting around for more than 24 hours may be be an uneconomic way of doing things. 

Ed

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8 minutes ago, Cabin-boy said:

Not if it's unaccompanied, no.  But having drivers sitting around for more than 24 hours may be be an uneconomic way of doing things. 

Ed

True.

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Quite a few comments from our regulars about the DFDS service to Dunkerque, sailing times are good ex Ireland but not so convenient for the return trip. I’ve seen plenty here recently who prefer Cherbourg because they are bored witless on the long crossings and it gets them home much earlier with sailings as they are. Now that Stena have positioned Estrid on the Rosslare run there is more space available and many more options from Cherbourg.

I can’t seeing Dublin - Dunkerque being an option as it’s too far and would be mighty expensive too.

Chris

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Yes, realistically the only potential route that is not already in operation is Rosslare - Le Havre.  I could see some hauliers preferring that to Dunkerque for the reasons you say, Chris - depending on where they are heading of course.

I’m not so sure that the argument that was advocated (that if there was any potential in such a route then BF would have seized it) necessarily holds.  BF has already demonstrated (and various of our French residents have explained) that decisions made by BF are not necessarily made for commercial reasons.

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In fact - here’s a thought.  One ship would be able to comfortably do one round trip to Dunkerque and two round trips to Le Havre per week.

So DFDS could, if they wanted to, operate both routes with their three ships.  Between those three ships, they could run 9 sailings in each direction per week between Ireland and France; three to Dunkerque and six to Le Havre.

Dunkerque would still be available, on alternate weekdays, for those that wanted the longer route.  Le Havre would become available almost daily for those that want a slightly shorter crossing but still land further east than Cherbourg.  And 50% more sailings from the same number of ships.

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1 hour ago, Gareth said:

DFDS could, if they wanted to, operate both routes with their three ships.

Just had a play around with possible timetables for such a service.  Alternate weekday sailings to Dunkerque would not be possible, two of them would need to be on consecutive days.  But a service that ran something along the following lines would be possible:

Rosslare - Le Havre: Daily except Wednesday, departing 1930 arriving 1730 the next day (after the BF ship has left).

Le Havre - Rosslare:  Daily except Thursday, departing 2030 arriving 1630 the next day.

Rosslare - Dunkerque: Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Saturdays, departing  2200 arriving 2300 the next day.  (The Wednesday sailing could leave earlier if preferred - 1930 or any time between 1930 and 2200).

Dunkerque - Rosslare:  Mondays, Thursdays and Fridays, departing 1500 arriving 1400 the next day.

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6 hours ago, Gareth said:

Rick, if P&O did open a Le Havre - Ireland route, do you think they might be tempted to use Dublin rather than Rosslare?  As you’ve said a few times, Rosslare might be approaching capacity, and P&O already have a base at Dublin.

Mind you, the benefit of Rosslare is being able to operate daily sailings in each direction using 2 ships.  The passage time to Dublin would be approaching 24 hours, so a schedule of that simplicity would not be possible.

This requires fast vessels at 28 knots ?

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3 hours ago, Solo said:

Would there be any sense in P&O, or any other new operator, starting from scratch in Le Havre with a route that might only be short term, when BF who already operate there seem to have dismissed it.  It would make more sense for P&O to operate from a port they are already set up in, the problem then is can they use Dover and the Dover ships would not be able to do the Irish routes.

Or if P&O opens a base in Le Havre they would take the opportunity to serve England?
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46 minutes ago, Gareth said:

Just had a play around with possible timetables for such a service.  Alternate weekday sailings to Dunkerque would not be possible, two of them would need to be on consecutive days.  But a service that ran something along the following lines would be possible:

Rosslare - Le Havre: Daily except Wednesday, departing 1930 arriving 1730 the next day (after the BF ship has left).

Le Havre - Rosslare:  Daily except Thursday, departing 2030 arriving 1630 the next day.

Rosslare - Dunkerque: Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Saturdays, departing  2200 arriving 2300 the next day.  (The Wednesday sailing could leave earlier if preferred - 1930 or any time between 1930 and 2200).

Dunkerque - Rosslare:  Mondays, Thursdays and Fridays, departing 1500 arriving 1400 the next day.

You play like me with the timetables 🙂 It's a particularly interesting proposition. You must submit the submission to DFDS. If not DFDS, P&O could do the same by alternating between Calais and Le Havre. Unfortunately I am sad to note the lack of responsiveness of Brittany Ferries on this subject.

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