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Electric cars - recharged


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8 minutes ago, spancophile said:

I shall certainly buy one then and happily drive off into my fossil fuel sunset.

And I shall try to remain ahead of you so as not to be in the cloud of fumes emanating from your vehicle. ūüėā

Ed

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37 minutes ago, spancophile said:

Couldn't agree more.Our preferred holidays of touring in France and Spain are completely impractical in an electric vehicle.At my present advanced age of 75 I can honestly say I have no intention of ever owning one.I predict massive sales of Petrol/Diesel vehicles in 2029.I shall certainly buy one then and happily drive off into my fossil fuel sunset.

Couldn't agree less!  We tour and might do 200 - 300 miles on a typical day. We nearly always stop for a leisurely pcinic or lunch.  That's completely compatible with EV ownership.

The only thing stopping us is price and the fact that we lug around the best part of 2 tonnes of caravan, which rather limits options and range. Both of these factors will change though.

People are already benig very cautious about buying big diesels, even those who need them for towing duties. I've seen discussion recently where someone really wants a Range Rover or Disco diesel but, with one eye on residuals was looking for sometihng cheaper instead.  I think there'll only be a very small market for large ICE vehicles, long before 2029. I expect it will be dominated by Ssang Yong or similar - i.e. a lower budget, big but cheap maker.

Edited by VikingVoyager
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3 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

I've seen discussion recently where someone really wants a Range Rover or Disco diesel but, with one eye on residuals was looking for something cheaper instead.

Residuals are already falling massively for ICE vehicles, where as good BEVs are having residuals in 80 to 95% mark after several years. Compare that to the third off the price rule when you drive off an ICE off the forecourt.

Several financial institutions are now looking at BEVs as an investment rather than the always heavily depreciating cars, especially for those that can get better with OTA (Over The Air) software updates. Imagine coming down to your ICE car to find the manufacturer had added 5% more efficiency / range or additional safety features for free overnight. Oh, that is BEV's only, yes it has happened to us several times, and is why Teslas etc can have 95% residual value after several years as they keep improving.

There are plenty of barriers to BEVs at the moment like the initial price, but they are coming down one by one. If China start importing their sub £10k and sub £20k good quality cars, then there will be a wave of change.

It is also thought that several of the current major brands will shrink massively, with several slated to do a British Leyland and and disappear as they cannot keep up with the changing market and different modus operandi for EVs. Big brands too, BMW and Mercedes are in the danger zone, along with other traditional European manufacturers. Some, like the many tentacled VW group will drop brands and amalgamate to adapt, although they will have to try harder as their ID3 and ID4 are not rated as good cars compared to other EVs, but of all the traditional European manufacturers they are probably making the most effort.

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31 minutes ago, VikingVoyager said:

Couldn't agree less!  We tour and might do 200 - 300 miles on a typical day. We nearly always stop for a leisurely pcinic or lunch.  That's completely compatible with EV ownership.

 

Just pondering the delights of a picnic at a charging point.I could munch on lentils and go and hug a tree afterwards.

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2 minutes ago, spancophile said:

Just pondering the delights of a picnic at a charging point.I could munch on lentils and go and hug a tree afterwards.

Perhaps you aren't familiar with French Aires if you are on main roads or charming small towns if you feel like diverting from your route? Where do you stop to refuel your body and stretch your legs?

Lentils can be nice in a salad, I suppose, and if you want to interact with nature romantically, I'm sure you can if it's legal.

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1 hour ago, spancophile said:

Couldn't agree more.Our preferred holidays of touring in France and Spain are completely impractical in an electric vehicle.At my present advanced age of 75 I can honestly say I have no intention of ever owning one.I predict massive sales of Petrol/Diesel vehicles in 2029.I shall certainly buy one then and happily drive off into my fossil fuel sunset.

On Wednesday I will be 5 years older than your goodself. Currently in good condition for age and mileage but a few creaks in the suspension so¬†I just hope that my first (and oly) EV¬†won't be a mobility scooter!¬†ūüėĄūüĎ®‚Äćūü¶ľ

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  • 2 weeks later...

This weekend I downloaded the 600+ page manual from the Mazda UK website to workout how to drive and charge the car before picking it up this afternoon.

Two things struck me. 

Firstly, they don't recommend plugging the car in to charge when it's raining, icy or snowing. Is this really an issue seeing as Norway has one of the highest uptake rates of electric-car ownership and I haven't heard of any problems linked to their climate. 

Secondly, it states that the car is not designed to tow a caravan or trailer. Is this due to weight constraints because of how much the battery pack already adds to the vehicle? Or is it due to the car's architecture and the way the batteries are packaged in the chassis that prevent extra holes being drilled? Or is it due to the inability to run extra cabling through the chassis for some reason? I'll ask the dealer if he knows as I would have been interested in putting a bike carrier on the back at some point in the future but can add roof bars (an official accessory) if not. 

Ed

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7 minutes ago, cvabishop said:

Excellent, thanks. So I was right that it's the weight issue which is the root cause of the restrictions. A bike carrier wouldn't add that much to the overall load so I'll definitely speak to the dealer and see what he says (although it might play havoc with the parking sensors).

Ed

Edited by Cabin-boy
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Although not specifically mentioned, it's possible that moving off with a tow behind could temporarily require too high a current draw for the speed controller between the battery and the motors.

An analogy with infernal consumption powered vehicles would be a tendency to burn out the clutch.

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1 hour ago, cvabishop said:

Although not specifically mentioned, it's possible that moving off with a tow behind could temporarily require too high a current draw for the speed controller between the battery and the motors.

An analogy with infernal consumption powered vehicles would be a tendency to burn out the clutch.

A common¬†problem wuth those infernal clutches¬†ūüėĀ

Edited by colinschandler
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6 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

Firstly, they don't recommend plugging the car in to charge when it's raining, icy or snowing.

You can charge EVs in any weather. The charging doesn't start until the car and charger have negotiated the charging rate etc so power does not flow straightaway, and will not allow charging charge is error or fault is detected. Many ports are also angled slightly down so the water runs away before charging. It is probably not a good idea to hold the charging plug up to the sky so it can fill with rain before plugging in though, nor lick the connector.

Disappointing from Mazda.

6 hours ago, Cabin-boy said:

Secondly, it states that the car is not designed to tow a caravan or trailer. Is this due to ...

3 hours ago, Solo said:

Couple of points I picked up from that, some of the tech is too complicated at the moment to do anything out of the ordinary, such as towing and are people aware of the extra weight of the vehicle.

EVs are excellent towers with low CoM, high torque etc, and the technology is there to tow and do other out of the ordinary things, as demonstrated in Teslas, I-Pace, VW ID4 etc. The available EV with the maximum towing capacity at the moment is the Tesla Model X at 2.25 tonnes. There are plenty of examples online with people using EVs to tow, plus examples of EVs pulling trains, planes etc to show their capabilities.

However many of the current EVs are handicapped by legacy manufacturers using smaller battery capacities or the software to manage towing effectively, so have not designed their cars with the capacity to tow and did not get them certified. This is rapidly being changed by forward looking manufacturers as new EV models are being released. Yes, the range when towing is more limited, just like ICE cars. When we towed a full load using an ICE car, it had about 2/3 the fuel efficiency of not towing, and quelle surprise it is around the same for EVs too.

The loss of range has more to do with aerodynamics than towed mass which is limited by the braking potential of the car rather than what it can actually tow.

The regen part is a red herring, as a properly designed EVs like Teslas can tow and regen, it is just the shortsighted, lack of investment by legacy manufacturers that have limited this. Teslas for example have a towing mode that adds in additional towing features like braking individual wheels if it detects trailer sway. (I use Teslas as an EV example as they are further ahead than anyone in design and software for EVs).

5 minutes ago, colinschandler said:

Although not specifically mentioned, it's possible that moving off with a tow behind could temporarily require too high a current draw for the speed controller between the battery and the motors.

The car's management system regulates the power flow, current draw etc so this is not going to happen. EVs are better towing vehicles due to their instant maximum torque.

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5 hours ago, Shipping Forecast said:

You can charge EVs in any weather. The charging doesn't start until the car and charger have negotiated the charging rate etc so power does not flow straightaway, and will not allow charging charge is error or fault is detected. Many ports are also angled slightly down so the water runs away before charging. It is probably not a good idea to hold the charging plug up to the sky so it can fill with rain before plugging in though, nor lick the connector.

 

When I plug the chagrer into my mobile phone it very occasionally comes up with an error message "moisture detected in charger port, try later" or some similar words, so obviously this problem has already been idenified and solved by manufacturers of rechargeable equipment including EV's.

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6 hours ago, Shipping Forecast said:

Disappointing from Mazda

Having spoken to the dealer he confirmed there is no problem and it's just Mazda covering themselves in case some American tries to recharge his car in the middle of a hurricane and electrocutes half of Florida.

As for the towbar, it's not possible on this model but that might change on future cars.

Ed

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Skoda's Enyaq iV can tow a max of 1200kg using their top range AWD 80X or AWD RS which has the equivalent of 302bhp & 335 lb-ft of torque.

Same as the ID.4. It's not good. Towing range of the Enyaq is around 125 miles... ID.4 is 120. Probably more in Holland where it's flat.

Tesla's. Model 3 can tow 1000kg, long range dual motor distance is 145 miles. Model Y can tow 1600kg, long range motor distance is 130 miles.

The model X with the sexy wing doors and an 85 -100k price tag can pull 2250kg, max towing range is estimated at 145 miles.

For those of us constrained by more earthly financial bounds... The Hyundai Ioniq 5 and the Kia EV6 are same platform and share the same 1600kg towing capacity. Long range models have a distance in them of around 125 miles.

The advantage of the Ioniq 5 over the EV6  is that it's the only vehicle to have V2L - vehicle to load so you can take power from the vehicles battery to power other stuff. There's also the option of a solar roof to pump power into the battery.

In terms of being attracted to the idea of owning a wobble box, You can get a half decent caravan at around 1600kg, with the Ioniq 5 offering the same functions as an EHU post for limited periods, I have a feeling they'll become a bit more popular especially when we begin to see more of the post '97 licence holders looking to purchase.

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The situation is changing all the time as technology improves. The basic CyberTruck will tow 3.4 tons, the tri-motor version over 6 tons so pulling a caravan is not going to tax it that much, but I doubt the CyberTruck will appeal to many caravaners. The Rivian R1S is 3.5 tons towing and so on.

But while towing is important to some, it is rather missing the point. The vast majority of the cars on the road (est. 95%) never tow, so if the other cars went EV then that would make an enormous difference while leaving those who tow with the option of ICE if required until suitable vehicles come along and work their way through the ecosystem.

Then there are the more polluting vehicles like vans, trucks and lorries that when changed too, will reduce pollution significantly. This electrification change is already silently as most are unaware. La Poste now has one of the largest electrified vehicle fleets in the world with nearly 40k electric vehicles of one type or another.

While the Ioniq 5's V2L is very useful (and long overdue), the real game changer will be V2H (where your car can power your house), or V2G (where you can resupply the grid) both at peak demand times, giving the ability to reduce grid loadings, the opportunity to arbitrage cheap to expensive electricity, plus backup for power cuts. There are several companies with hardware / software to this now and some of it is being trialled, but NG and the DNOs are catching up to the ever faster waves of progress in what used to be a long time scale business.

And if peak loadings can be removed, a number of expensive to operate power stations required to cover peak times can also be got rid off which should then reduce electricity bills.

The electrification / automation revolution is going to affect many people in different ways, and while there are not electric solutions yet for every need / purpose at a price point to suit, more and more are arriving.

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14 hours ago, Shipping Forecast said:

EVs are excellent towers with low CoM, high torque etc,

Difficult to get onto a charging point on the motorway with a caravan on the back?¬†ūüėÄ

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4 hours ago, Shipping Forecast said:

La Poste now has one of the largest electrified vehicle fleets in the world with nearly 40k electric vehicles of one type or another.

That still hasn't helped them improve their service. Our post doesn't arrive until 1pm if we are lucky. Their excuse is probably that they are waiting for the vehicles to recharge!

Ed

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I read all these posts and are very interesting,to me if you don't go for a car in the upper brackets of costs.it means to stop every 200 or so miles or less to recharge,then sit around for a age waiting for it to charge.then if you get stuck in a traffic jam and the battery wants charging.what happens then?so many different points of views as I said before I think I will be sticking with a petrol or diesel until am forced to go electric hopefully by then the cost ,range,charging points etc are a lot better.stay safe

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Not sure how many 200 mile trips I'd be doing without a decent stop - say 20 mins.

I think I read of a caravan that is able to supply power back to the towing vehicle. Which makes a lot of sense as battery weight comes down, why not have an off grid caravan with enough power to help offset it's impact on towing range.  With 400 watts of solar on the roof, you'd have more than enough for your off grid power needs while slowly recharging the battery for the next journey.  

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7 hours ago, IanN said:

Difficult to get onto a charging point on the motorway with a caravan on the back?

Yes this is part of the short sightedness by designers who cannot see outside their own bubble. Most pull sideways into adjacent parking bays with car in the charging spot. Bat as above, you only need a low percentage of charging spots for towing vehicles except on popular caravan routes.

3 hours ago, nodwad said:

if you get stuck in a traffic jam and the battery wants charging.what happens then

What happens if you run out of fuel in a traffic jam? It just the same and because people still run out of fuel now (apparently 60k per month), they will run out of charge too, so there are recharging vans with massive batteries to give you a boost to get you to the next charging point.

3 hours ago, nodwad said:

it means to stop every 200 or so miles or less to recharge,then sit around for a age waiting for it to charge.

It is just a different way of thinking. Unless you need to charge to 100% as no charging where you are going, you only top up on route to get you to your next charging point at your destination where you do a healthier (for battery) longer charge. This top up can be less time than going to loo etc now with the higher charging rates. One of reasons 200 miles is a common range level apart from being a big round number, it also is around 2.5 to 3 hours of motorway driving time and most people's bladder comfort limit so they will stop anyway.

 

2 hours ago, VikingVoyager said:

I think I read of a caravan that is able to supply power back to the towing vehicle. Which makes a lot of sense as battery weight comes down, why not have an off grid caravan with enough power to help offset it's impact on towing range.  With 400 watts of solar on the roof, you'd have more than enough for your off grid power needs while slowly recharging the battery for the next journey.  

This is the eco dilemma. Unless you are keen to go camping off the beaten track, it is probably environmentally better at the moment to use the supplied power from an electric hookup, than to produce solar panels especially if they are low efficiency.

Car, caravan, motorhome roof tops are not large enough for the solar power generated to charge cars etc effectively. In the US, the 'ultra solar' nomads have especially adapted trailers / RVs with solar wings that fold out when stationary increasing the solar collection area / output up to 3x to bring to usable levels for living.

There is a car (Lightspeed One) being developed in the Netherlands with an integrated solar roof that can currently get 7.5 miles / 12km of range in an hour in ideal conditions on an bright sunny day. On a winters day in Northern Europe that is effectively going to be a couple of miles at best. They are pushing the envelope in other interesting ways with in wheel motors and efficiency.

Again you have to weigh up whether the extra materials / production processes are better used for each car (or any specific application), or in higher efficiency double sided, multi-junction/double layer/tandem*, sun tracking solar panels supplying everyone. This will change with newer solar cell designs but the balance will always be there as part of the whole lifecycle. It is not solar cells with everything.

*Double layer/tandem is when energy is extracted from solar radiation twice on one side of a solar panel thereby increasing efficiency. (It is not a straightforward doubling for many reasons). Multi-junction is the holy grail of solar panels enabling energy to be extracted at multiple frequencies of solar radiation boosting the theoretical maximum efficiency from 33% to 80%+. In practice the best solar cells are around 25-28% efficient with standard grade versions being 18-22%. Multi-junction cells have got to 40% efficiency but are eye wateringly expensive at the moment, mainly being used for space based applications like satellites. Multi-junction cells are obviously a leading area of research with a lot of money been spent on it.

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