Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Unregistered User

Fuel Crisis in France?

Recommended Posts

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Wiggo

 

Fully apprecaite your points.

 

No, it would not be easy to take business elsewhere, and quite honestly there is not a great deal to take. BUT, when protest turns into lawlessness and I am affected and (certainly in the past, feel threatended), then I can and will go elsewhere whatever the so called justification is.

 

End of rant.

 

 

Thanks Chris....

 

Nothing wrong with a good rant, look at my previous !! :D

 

Wiggo......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

 

 

OK but that cost is spread over millions and millions of pounds worth of cargo transported during that time.

Using the ‘shock tactic’ of a figure which to most people will seem large (£1,549,200) does not do justice and is not balanced for a debate.

 

Using the original scenario, if that 44 ton lorry’s 220,000 annual mileage was made up of (to keep it simple) 220 x 500 miles round trips, and we use my original figure of £50,000 per average value of cargo (because no more informed member has suggested it should be otherwise yet) then the total value of goods transported would be £11,000,000 per truck. So if it’s fuel costs had gone up from £97,500 to £123,320, ie: £25,820 then we have to spread that cost increase over the cost of the goods transported (just like we do with salaries, amortisation of vehicle, logistics costs etc) and that amounts to approximately 0.235% increase on the cost of goods transported. Let’s say I am out by ½, it is still not .5%! Is this enough of a reason to blockade refineries?

 

 

But surely that example only applies to those manufacturers who haul their own goods ? They can factor their haulage costs as a percentage of the cost of their goods. But for the independent haulier who gets X for transporting a product then the fuel costs are a major part of his costs. Surely a haulier hauls unit loads or 40ft containers or whatever and the contents make no difference to the cost (unles sit has special handling) ?

 

For example - I give my local taximan a contract to carry a box for me for 25miles once a week. We agree a price of a tenner a trip. AT the time his fuel costs were 4euro, insurance/depreciation 4 euro so he makes 2euro. Now fuel goes up and his costs come to 9 euro. SO his profit goes down. What's in the box makes no difference to him at all - it could be cold chips or diamonds. Now if I was transporting the box myself then fuel costs would become important to me because they would impinge but whilst I have my contract I have a nice fixed cost of a tenner per pacvage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

But surely that example only applies to those manufacturers who haul their own goods ? They can factor their haulage costs as a percentage of the cost of their goods. But for the independent haulier who gets X for transporting a product then the fuel costs are a major part of his costs. Surely a haulier hauls unit loads or 40ft containers or whatever and the contents make no difference to the cost (unles sit has special handling) ?

 

For example - I give my local taximan a contract to carry a box for me for 25miles once a week. We agree a price of a tenner a trip. AT the time his fuel costs were 4euro, insurance/depreciation 4 euro so he makes 2euro. Now fuel goes up and his costs come to 9 euro. SO his profit goes down. What's in the box makes no difference to him at all - it could be cold chips or diamonds. Now if I was transporting the box myself then fuel costs would become important to me because they would impinge but whilst I have my contract I have a nice fixed cost of a tenner per pacvage.

 

Not so, if you are talking about inflationary pressures as the previous poster did, then it matters not who carries the product, just what the cost of transporting it is.

 

Sure, if your taximan does not renegotiate a new price with you then his profit will be affected however I would strongly recommend to him that he renegotiate a price adding at least 1euro to the price he charges you and therefore re-establishing his profit margin at the earliest opportunity.

You then have to decide if you need to (or can) pass that cost on to whoever you may be selling to. If in the box there were “cold chips” with what I would assume to be a low margin then you may well have to increase the prices you charge and that will of course have a bigger inflationary effect than if in the box you have a couple of million euros worth of diamonds to which an extra cost of 1Euro will have a negligible impact.

 

If your Taximan is stuck in a contract with you that he can not renegotiate for a perioed of time then,

A) More fool him and

B) He needs to make up any shortfall on other contracts he is currently negotiating so as to offset the reduced margin on your contract.

 

Wiggo……..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

I was wondering if the cost of diesel is still much less in France & Spain.

 

Presumably lorries will fill up in the cheapist country, would there be any law to prevent lorries from being fitted with extra long range tanks to take advantage of this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

I was wondering if the cost of diesel is still much less in France & Spain.

 

Presumably lorries will fill up in the cheapist country, would there be any law to prevent lorries from being fitted with extra long range tanks to take advantage of this?

 

Spain is cheaper than France, but prices are rising by the day. As to long-range tanks, most new vehicles come with 2 x 400 litre tanks, but you cann fit a "belly" tank that fits under the "fifth"wheel, this adds another 400 litres. The downside is that "belly" tanks are illegal in UK - thank the government - just done to prevent the hauliers taking advantage of cheaper fuel in Europe.

 

Micheil & Jacqui

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Looking at the amount of foreign trucks on UK roads, I am rather happy that they are not able to use belly tanks. At least if they have to purchase some fuel in UK they are contributing to the costs of their use of our roads. Just a pity that UK vehicles cannot use a belly tank and fill up abroad to offset the tolls on the continent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Looking at the amount of foreign trucks on UK roads, I am rather happy that they are not able to use belly tanks. At least if they have to purchase some fuel in UK they are contributing to the costs of their use of our roads. Just a pity that UK vehicles cannot use a belly tank and fill up abroad to offset the tolls on the continent.

 

Craig, you might find this interesting to look at some of the previous/ongoing initiatives to ‘help’ UK hauliers and create a balance.

Wiggo…..

 

http://www.rha.net/public/news/releases/2005/050810.shtml

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Seems a worthy cause, however are FTA and RHA simply representative bodies of the industry ? No certainty of government action or indeed acknowledgement of the issue if so ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Seems a worthy cause, however are FTA and RHA simply representative bodies of the industry ? No certainty of government action or indeed acknowledgement of the issue if so ?

 

I think they are simply that Craig, representative, but given the size of the industry they should be a reasonably powerful voice I would have thought.

Wiggo......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

The price mechanism should be allowed to work.

 

How long has 80% tax been part of a rational price mechanism...

 

A compromise could be found very easily - petrol prices go up so tax revenues (being proportionate to cost price) go up...so government earns lots more money. So why can't it nullify this, not make the extra unbudgeted income, and reduce tax to ease the pressure on the consumer/haulier..?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

How long has 80% tax been part of a rational price mechanism...

 

Since the 70’s I think when tax on fuel was a lot lower as a % of the overall price and OPEC flexed it’s muscles and crippled the Western Economies for many years. Anyone else remember the ‘Austin Allegro Syndrome’ when Britain had a credit rating of a 3rd World Nation? Since that time, tax on fuel was increased and ironically acts as a ‘buffer’ to OPEC’s and other producers ability to control the market and from what I read, economists seem to be in general unison that it has been successful and is a good way of raising revenues that, and make no mistake about this, Governments would raise one way or the other.

 

A compromise could be found very easily - petrol prices go up so tax revenues (being proportionate to cost price) go up...so government earns lots more money. So why can't it nullify this, not make the extra unbudgeted income, and reduce tax to ease the pressure on the consumer/haulier..?

 

Tax on fuel as duty is a fixed figure, the only additional revenue the Government take is in the increased VAT revenue on any increase on the retail price. I don’t have access to those numbers however there is an article in today’s 'Times' that says G Brown is holding back once again on the 1.25p increase in duty for another 6 months which will take the suspension of the increase to 2 years (I think). The article (without referring to it now cos I can’t put my hand on it) went on to say the Net result to the Government was a loss of around £1.5Billion.

 

Wiggo……………………..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

That's interesting. As you might have guessed by now I don't know much about economics (wrongly decided to take politics and stats instead of economics and mechanics a level) but it's fun to learn through debating.

 

I think there's a difference between not-putting-tax-up, which of course produces more revenue (so therefore costs you not to do it as it were) and cutting tax to compensate for revenue increases. Would be interested to see the Times article though.

 

As petrol prices venture towards £1, might that create something of a hysteresis (?) point whereby people suddenly think ah this petrol really is expensive, as opposed to it going up by 1p every now and then on a sliding scale. This might slow down demand for it? And would this then limit tax revenue?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Tax on fuel as duty is a fixed figure, the only additional revenue the Government take is in the increased VAT revenue on any increase on the retail price.

 

Which business reclaims anyway.

 

I think for many people the price of fuel must be irrelevant. If it was important they would not drive their kids to school in SUVs or Super Pick-ups. Yes it has risen in price but virtually very other motoring cost has fallen in real terms and cars have never been so cheap for the specifications on offer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Millsy, you are so right! I was going to start writing a whole lot more in response about how Fuel has always been expensive etc etc but the fact is, we are incredibly well off in Europe no matter how it might seem sometimes. I am not saying that means we should just lay down and accept what ever the Government wish to impose on us but we are more than capable of seeing out this temporary spike in oil prices and still being, relatively, well off when prices settle down, as they inevitably will.

Wiggo…………….

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

That's interesting. As you might have guessed by now I don't know much about economics (wrongly decided to take politics and stats instead of economics and mechanics a level) but it's fun to learn through debating.

 

I think there's a difference between not-putting-tax-up, which of course produces more revenue (so therefore costs you not to do it as it were) and cutting tax to compensate for revenue increases. Would be interested to see the Times article though.

 

As petrol prices venture towards £1, might that create something of a hysteresis (?) point whereby people suddenly think ah this petrol really is expensive, as opposed to it going up by 1p every now and then on a sliding scale. This might slow down demand for it? And would this then limit tax revenue?

 

Yes, people will possibly curtail some journeys a little if they feel that Fuel is expensive and that will result in less fuel being sold which will result in less tax revenue which will also lead to gradual and default lowering of fuel prices because the pressure will be off supplies and so it continues and the natural supply and demand cycle will continue unabated, with a possible bit of tinkering with interest rates up and down to balance (or try to balance) as we go along. What we don’t need and what encouraged me to respond to this thread initially is a knee jerk reaction from an industry whom I am sure feels a little pressured right now but are prepared to put the economy in jeopardy for their short term selfish concerns.

 

I am not trying to have a pop at Micheil and/or Jacqui but by their own admission, 12 months or so ago they were making 18% profit (very nice thank you) on a particular run, now it’s down to 6% (still a profit) if they are lucky so they are prepared to, and I quote, “support whatever action is taken” to re-establish the staus-quo.

Well I am sorry but I just do not think that is the right attitude! I am sure it is not easy for them and/or the haulage business in general but I am equally sure things will settle down, and we don’t need (the economy in general) knee jerk maverick action.

 

I don’t like this Government (UK) but I do know that they are not that daft! Cunning, maybe, snide and generally manipulative with the truth for sure, but they are not stupid and they have access to some of the best advisory talent in the Country and if they really thought the economy was going to ‘hell in a hand basket’ because of high fuel prices, they would act and reduce it, and they could act and reduce it for the very reason that they control 80% (there or there about) of the price. Back in the 70’s, they did not, and we were at the mercy of OPEC and when the oil prices fluctuated in double digits then we really caught a cold. Now, oil prices are high but we are still in a growth period!

 

Right that’s my final rant on this subject (unless someone wants to rattle my cage a little more)

 

Wiggo……

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Hehe! Sorry if I've been rattling, Wiggo, but as I said I'm a novice at economics and have learnt quite a bit from this - hope you don't mind and thanks :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Hehe! Sorry if I've been rattling, Wiggo, but as I said I'm a novice at economics and have learnt quite a bit from this - hope you don't mind and thanks :D

 

I am no economist either but I do have a reasonable 'in' on the oil market through my business. I also love a good debate ! :D

 

Wiggo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

While I was in France a fortnight ago, I read in one of the papers about the goverment appealing to people to drive more economicaly. It is a serious issue for any business, but thankfully we are not running our trucks/cars on beer. Hinkley.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

I thought it was about time I re-ignited the debate, just to show that I’ve been keeping up to date.

 

Having just finished reading yesterday’s copy of “The Times”, where I noticed a piece about the price of fuel and the effect it could have on the projections given by various governments as to economic growth over the next 12 months. It would appear that most governments were working to a figure of between 1.1 and 1.3%. This, most economists are saying, will not happen and that growth will only be around 0.6% and there are doubts about the sustainability of that percentage. When one adds this all together with the recently announced increase in gas prices by 14%, and that makes a 40% rise since 2002, it makes me wonder if the price of energy is going to bring about a substantial slowdown in the economy.

 

This article also pointed out that every home actually spends 10% of their nett income on energy for the home.

 

On the fuel protest front, I am hearing rumours that there is to be a rolling blockade of the M4 (between Bristol & London) next week, which will include not only Haulage Companies, but also Coach Operators, Taxi Companies and some members of the public. I have also heard that the group that blockaded Oil Terminals & Refineries a few years ago are considering doing the same again very soon unless the government reduces the tax on fuel.

 

So, it appears to me that it is not just us that have decided that the price of fuel is too high, but some of the British population have come to the same conclusion and are ready to act.

 

Micheil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

The problem is that realistically, the Government can't bow to pressure to cut taxes... if they do it on this occasion, then it will set a precedent for when this situation occurs in the future, and rest assured that's a when and not an if.

 

As for a rolling blockade of the M4... well, that won't make it much slower than Friday night ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

I thought it was about time I re-ignited the debate, just to show that I’ve been keeping up to date.

 

Having just finished reading yesterday’s copy of “The Times”, where I noticed a piece about the price of fuel and the effect it could have on the projections given by various governments as to economic growth over the next 12 months. It would appear that most governments were working to a figure of between 1.1 and 1.3%.

 

This, most economists are saying, will not happen and that growth will only be around 0.6% and there are doubts about the sustainability of that percentage. When one adds this all together with the recently announced increase in gas prices by 14%, and that makes a 40% rise since 2002, it makes me wonder if the price of energy is going to bring about a substantial slowdown in the economy.

 

Micheil, if it is was not so serious it would be funny but I gather Gordon Brown is still sticking will his 3 to 3.5% !!

I have no doubt that the fuel price is higher than it should be, is slowing the economy and is hurting some industry more than others.

So I guess the question is, how will your proposed action of blockading refineries stave off this downturn in the economy, which I have no doubt will happen. Where do you suggest the shortfalls in tax revenue come from?

 

This article also pointed out that every home actually spends 10% of their nett income on energy for the home.

 

So households will have to curb their spending which will slow the economy and maybe take the heat out of the housing market (I am looking at UK specifics)! 12 months ago that was what the UK Government wanted, ie: to cool things off. Due to relatively strong world economies there has been a squeeze on refined oil supplies, couple that with recent issues that you can not control like ‘Katrina’ and things get a little more out of kilter than we would like. But the fact remains because of a general strengthening in the world economy over the past few years, we are suffering from our own success. Again, by your own admission only last year you were making 18% profit!

 

I doubt Interest rates will have to go up any more in the short term in fact some economists suggest the next movement might, just might be down.

I bet you a pound to a penny if the oil price was not where it was then interest rates would have been higher today and would still be very much on the upward trend which would make your capital cost of new trucks and the running costs more expensive.

 

On the fuel protest front, I am hearing rumours that there is to be a rolling blockade of the M4 (between Bristol & London) next week, which will include not only Haulage Companies, but also Coach Operators, Taxi Companies and some members of the public. I have also heard that the group that blockaded Oil Terminals & Refineries a few years ago are considering doing the same again very soon unless the government reduces the tax on fuel.

 

Tut tut Micheil, shame on you listening to and posting rumours. It is normaly your voice of reason on these forums suggesting members stick to facts.

 

That said, I am not surprised if this sort of protest may be being considered in the UK but that does not make it right or any less silly or potentially destructive than the protests in France.

The irony is, this rise is nothing to do with the Government this time, in fact the UK Government has actually suspended it’s revenue increases on fuel at this juncture, aside from the VAT of course.

As it happens, I don’t mind too much if they do reduce the tax take, I am all for a lower tax take in general, but the problem is (in the UK) that the Government has set out it’s spending targets and it needs a certain revenue to fulfil the pledges and as we agree the economy is falling short of projection so they already have a shortfall. Now you and your colleagues wish to increase that shortfall even further.

 

So, it appears to me that it is not just us that have decided that the price of fuel is too high, but some of the British population have come to the same conclusion and are ready to act.

 

That still does not make the blockading of refineries right! Out of all the groups you mention I do have some sympathy for the taxi drivers, at least the ‘London regulated type’ because they have one hell of a process to go through to allow them to raise their prices to make any allowance for cost increases. The haulage firms can and will pass on those increased costs in their own pricing, as will the ferry companies, the airlines, the butchers the bakers and the candlestick makers.

 

Wiggo……….

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

The problem is that realistically, the Government can't bow to pressure to cut taxes... if they do it on this occasion, then it will set a precedent for when this situation occurs in the future, and rest assured that's a when and not an if.

 

Absolutely spot on! I have said on more than one occasion on this very forum, I don’t like this (UK) Government however your can’t have the inmates running the asylum!

 

As for a rolling blockade of the M4... well, that won't make it much slower than Friday night

 

That’s funny! You might even find that traffic runs a little more smoothly, albeit a little more slowly!

 

Wiggo……

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Just got back off a fortnights holiday in Austria.. Two voyage reports to post later about P&O Dover to Calais.

 

It would appear that garages are already beginning to shut in our area and not selling petrol.

 

So I am currently sat with a virtually empty tank of fuel and unless I can get 50 litres of fuel per week (50 mile round trip to work), I will be unable to get to work and therefore unable to earn money.

 

Sorry Michel and everyone who agrees with this blockade of refineries etc. I do not support you and your selfish attitudes. I refused to support you last time and will refuse to support you again.

 

During the last blockade several years ago the blockages cost me around £400 as my employer stated that it was not there problem I could not get to work and therefore refused to pay me.

 

Why are the haulage firms having a go at the government, what about the petrol companies who are making a damn site more than the goverment is from their tax.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: A Looming Fuel Crisis in France?

 

Just got back off a fortnights holiday in Austria.. Two voyage reports to post later about P&O Dover to Calais.

 

It would appear that garages are already beginning to shut in our area and not selling petrol.

 

So I am currently sat with a virtually empty tank of fuel and unless I can get 50 litres of fuel per week (50 mile round trip to work), I will be unable to get to work and therefore unable to earn money.

 

Sorry Michel and everyone who agrees with this blockade of refineries etc. I do not support you and your selfish attitudes. I refused to support you last time and will refuse to support you again.

 

During the last blockade several years ago the blockages cost me around £400 as my employer stated that it was not there problem I could not get to work and therefore refused to pay me.

 

Why are the haulage firms having a go at the government, what about the petrol companies who are making a damn site more than the goverment is from their tax.

 

Actually Paul the Government are making far more than anyone in this as they take some 80+% of the retail price (or they did before the recent spikes in price) so the remaining 20-% is split between the producer and the Oil co’s and I can tell you for sure that the producers will get the lion share of the remaining 20-%. The reasons the Oil co’s make a lot of money is because they turn over massive amounts but their % profits are not substantially more than other industries, in general.

Also, they don’t make it just from you and me at the pump, much of their business is in the downstream petrochemical products that go into, well into everything really, plastics, fertilizers all sorts of stuff.

Wiggo……

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...